May 2015 Provincial Election Thread v2

[PsYcNeT]

Hell, I could walk into the bathroom right now, slip, and break my wrist and have better coverage than the dude who got his arm caught in a thresher last week.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Compare it to whatever you want, I suppose a better comparison would be any labour job ever, all of which have better (read: existent) OH&S/WCB coverage than farms.

You just compared being a farmer to being a corporate intern.

[vegasbound]

And most of us who farm have better coverage through private insurance than WCB. And a lot of people I know already carry WCB.

This fight isn't as much about WCB than the government trying to pass a bill they have no business in passing. You can't put a blanket OHS policy on all farms and pass it like this! Not going to happen! And I guarantee you that if there are no amendments in the bill by January 1, farmers and ranchers will be a heck of a lot more mad.

[polak]

How can you stand behind the "our industry is different angle"?

Every industry is different but all of them seem to be able to operate in a world with OH&S regulation. That argument basically boils down to "our business model doesn't work if we have to worry about silly things like safety and minimum wages". Solid.

Oh noes! The farmers will be mad! For every farmer that gets mad, there is a horizon or cargill ready to step in and follow OH&S regulations and any other industry that these farmers step into, they will have to follow OH&S regulations. Adapt or die.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Locke

You just compared being a farmer to being a corporate intern.

Yeah and that intern has WCB and far less chance of being dismembered on the job.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by polak

How can you stand behind the "our industry is different angle"?

Every industry is different but all of them seem to be able to operate in a world with OH&S regulation. That argument basically boils down to "our business model doesn't work if we have to worry about silly things like safety and minimum wages". Solid.

Because....their industry is different.

Normally its not a strong argument, but farming is, in many ways, unlike anything else. Whatever other ridiculous comparisons people want to make.

And besides, I'm still not seeing the endgame here. Are farmers and/or their workers/friends/family actually completely uninsured and so people either have to walk their injuries off or become injured wards of the state?

[polak]

Originally Posted by Locke

Because....their industry is different.

Normally its not a strong argument, but farming is, in many ways, unlike anything else. Whatever other ridiculous comparisons people want to make.

And besides, I'm still not seeing the endgame here. Are farmers and/or their workers/friends/family actually completely uninsured and so people either have to walk their injuries off or become injured wards of the state?

How is then that farmers in the other provinces can operate with such ridiculous regulations set on them? How come companies like Cargill can have strict safety measures in place and still operate?

The family farm defense is literally "our business model doesn't work under OH&S and we should be exempt because of it". It would be like a mechanic saying that his shop can't operate if his 12 year old isn't able to work for free so he should just be able to do it anyways.

It's complete lunacy and desperation from the farmers side.

[vegasbound]

I was about to post something in reply to Polak but I'm not going to even waste my breath on it. But until you've been up all night with a sick cow or pulled a calf at even 2 pm in the afternoon or 2 am, I don't think you'll ever get it.

I have too much crap to do (oh like do chores on a farm!) than sit here but if anyone actually wants to know what and how farmers will be affected by Bill 6, you can PM me.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Yeah and that intern has WCB and far less chance of being dismembered on the job.

Yes, and its all because of legislation. It wouldnt have anything to do with any of the ancillary factors like:

- the lack of heavy machinery
- no requirement for physical work of any kind
- not growing food

Its almost as if his job isnt like farming at all!

And again, what is the goal? This is a form of insurance. Are farmers uninsured leaving dismembered people wandering about their fields in a zombie-like stupor until the state comes to take care of them?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by polak

How is then that farmers in the other provinces can operate with such ridiculous regulations set on them? How come companies like Cargill can have strict safety measures in place and still operate?

The family farm defense is literally "our business model doesn't work under OH&S and we should be exempt because of it". It would be like a mechanic saying that his shop can't operate if his 12 year old isn't able to work for free so he should just be able to do it anyways.

It's complete lunacy and desperation from the farmers side.

I'm not saying that they cant. But they havent had WCB all this time and the apocalyptic fallout of this travesty has been...?

Maybe they should have WCB, but then are they going to reduce their various other private coverage?

What is the problem that this legislation is designed to fix?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

so like i said, please post a source. Your link didn't mention anything about wind farms...It's ok if your source is your buddy who was at the event, but post that.

I've been trying to track it down. My aunt posted it on Facebook, and a bunch of other 'rural Albertan' friends of mine have reposted similar wordings.

As of yet, it appears to track back to a "farmers against NDP. Bill 6" group on Facebook and back to a couple of other anti-NDP and anti-Notley groups.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/farmersagainstbill6/

Not the best source in the world... and I hope it has some validity but is impossible to track

[polak]

Originally Posted by vegasbound

I was about to post something in reply to Polak but I'm not going to even waste my breath on it. But until you've been up all night with a sick cow or pulled a calf at even 2 pm in the afternoon or 2 am, I don't think you'll ever get it.

I have too much crap to do (oh like do chores on a farm!) than sit here but if anyone actually wants to know what and how farmers will be affected by Bill 6, you can PM me.

There it is haha.

I was waiting for it. The "You don't get it, we work so hard" comment. I'll take that as the admission that you have no real logic as to why your industry should be exempt versus other industries, cause that's what it is.

Mechanics, Truckers, Warehouse folks, Shop owners, Trades people, nope. None of them work hard or don't have time for silly things like paper work. It's only farmers and their special little snowflake status that deserve to be exempt. For an industry that works so hard, I don't think there is any occupation that is more entitled.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Locke

Yes, and its all because of legislation. It wouldnt have anything to do with any of the ancillary factors like:

- the lack of heavy machinery
- no requirement for physical work of any kind
- not growing food

Its almost as if his job isnt like farming at all!

And again, what is the goal? This is a form of insurance. Are farmers uninsured leaving dismembered people wandering about their fields in a zombie-like stupor until the state comes to take care of them?

The goal is that the employer (again, like every other employer in the country, literally), pays into WCB for coverage so that if their employee/worker gets hurt while working for them, WCB shoulders the burden of the injured worker rather than EI, or homelessness.

On top of that, OH&S regulation and inspection can be applied to injury situations so compliance can be enforced, and unsafe operations shut down.

On top of on top of that, employees will also now qualify for vacation pay and minimum wage.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by polak

How is then that farmers in the other provinces can operate with such ridiculous regulations set on them? How come companies like Cargill can have strict safety measures in place and still operate?

The family farm defense is literally "our business model doesn't work under OH&S and we should be exempt because of it". It would be like a mechanic saying that his shop can't operate if his 12 year old isn't able to work for free so he should just be able to do it anyways.

It's complete lunacy and desperation from the farmers side.

You realize other provinces have exemptions right?

If Alberta were to roll out exactly Saskatchewan's legislation there probably wouldn't be nearly as much outcry. There would still be some because change causes that but it would be more palatable. Bill 6 goes over and beyond what other Provinces have.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by polak

How is then that farmers in the other provinces can operate with such ridiculous regulations set on them? How come companies like Cargill can have strict safety measures in place and still operate?

The family farm defense is literally "our business model doesn't work under OH&S and we should be exempt because of it". It would be like a mechanic saying that his shop can't operate if his 12 year old isn't able to work for free so he should just be able to do it anyways.

It's complete lunacy and desperation from the farmers side.

Because other provinces have exemptions and different rules based on the size of the number of employees. Different rules for corporate farms then for family farms. This did not exist in what the NDP purposed. You and Phsychnet have to be trolling, how else can two posters be so polarized on this yet be so uninformed.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm not saying that they cant. But they havent had WCB all this time and the apocalyptic fallout of this travesty has been...?

Maybe they should have WCB, but then are they going to reduce their various other private coverage?

What is the problem that this legislation is designed to fix?

Well I'd love to show you some numbers but unfortunately, it's pretty hard to find any real current reports on farm safety considering they don't have to report safety incidents!

[Stormageddon]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Hey dude I'm kind of sick today, can you swing by and weld this for me? You're swell.

I know you feel like this is a ridiculous scenario, and while this particular scenario is ridiculous, whether you believe it or not, farmers help each other out literally all the time.

I'm not a great welder so I'll get my neighbor to weld this up for me.

We're branding the calves today, we need the whole family and 3 or 4 neighbours to help out.

I'll get my neighbor to run his combine for me this harvest and I'll watch his cows this winter while he's away.

The cows got out onto my neighbours field but he chased them back in for me and helped me fix the fence.

All real life scenarios from my experiences, and the list goes on. None of which are paid for, except with meals and/or beer.

It is a different situation, whether you guys like it or not. Be as condescending and know-it-all as you want, but you don't understand life on a farm, how farms operate, what kind of insurance farmers already have.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Because other provinces have exemptions and different rules based on the size of the number of employees. Different rules for corporate farms then for family farms. This did not exist in what the NDP purposed. You and Phsychnet have to be trolling, how else can two posters be so polarized on this yet be so uninformed.

Manitoba has no such exemptions. In fact, the only exemptions I have found while researching are in Saskatchewan and Ontario.

[vegasbound]

Originally Posted by polak

There it is haha.

I was waiting for it. The "You don't get it, we work so hard" comment. I'll take that as the admission that you have no real logic as to why your industry should be exempt versus other industries, cause that's what it is.

Mechanics, Truckers, Warehouse folks, Shop owners, Trades people, nope. None of them work hard or don't have time for silly things like paper work. It's only farmers and their special little snowflake status that deserve to be exempt. For an industry that works so hard, I don't think there is any occupation that is more entitled.

Okay, I've worked under OHS legislation. My family owned a dairy farm in BC also, who has OHS but people who have less than 10 employees on it. Same with Saskatchewan OHS. They get it.

I don't think you understand what farmers are asking... We're not asking for a complete exemption here! At all! We want amendments to it. The same OHS legislation that I worked under will NOT fit farms. I'm not going to wear a freaking hard hat to enter a commercial work space to go feed cows. Forget that. We're asking for a policy review. Entering grain bins, tractors, feeding cows... we want specifics on that and how OHS will deal with that. How is all that so hard to comprehend?

[vegasbound]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Manitoba has no such exemptions. In fact, the only exemptions I have found while researching are in Saskatchewan and Ontario.

You haven't done your research well enough. BC has an exemption too.