[CP Story] Did the Flames Miss the Playoffs on July 1st?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Ok.

By that token you are saying this Flames team has been much worse defensively than say the Oilers of recent years. I strongly disagree with that, but your call.

Fair enough

October, yes. (My opinion) Since, no, but still terribly flawed, and things are regressing to the mean.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Hartley has said before this season that he didn't like the three goalie system but from what I understood the argument was that it interfered with practises. He never elaborated and I don't know what has happened with other teams who tried it. Can anyone give any past experience examples?

It's probably been bad because just getting into that situation seems to say that no goalie has stood up as the #1. This is the case for the Flames in my opinion, no one has stood up and taken the top spot and that's on the goalies.

The Wild have had 3 goalies all year. Their 11-6-3 record tells me it's not hurting them.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Jesus ...

I'm willing to take criticism believe me, but you get serious "knob" points for this one.

You'd think 15 years of writing free article wouldn't get you accused of lifting ideas or being simplistic.

Reported for personal attack.

[FBI]

There's a reason the 3 goalie system has worked for no team EVER.

It's because it is a terrible, soul sucking, confidence tearing apart, team ruining strategy. /rant

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by FBI

There's a reason the 3 goalie system has worked for no team EVER.

It's because it is a terrible, soul sucking, confidence tearing apart, team ruining strategy. /rant

It sure seems to be destroying the Wild this year!

[polak]

I bought the goalie argument early on but since Ramo has picked up his play, the team has still sucked around him.

This is all on the defence both on the players (minus Brodie) and the coach. The useless, life sucking coach that hasn't been able to do anything with this team.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

FWIW, I wasn't trying to accuse you of lifting ideas. It's fair to be inspired by discussions. But yes, that was a simplistic analysis. And your 15 years managing this site - while greatly appreciated - does not make it any less simplistic.

I think you'd do better inserting a few "in my opinion" statements here and there.

Comes across a little less like Zeus on Mount Olympus that way.

I've seen it coaching kids, compensating for a weak link is a huge issue, especially if it's a goaltender.

The Flames had success last year because they never waivered from the system. Now they are, badly

It could be changes.
It could be tuning Hartley out.

But the absolute best way to destroy a system that relied on too much defensive zone time, blocking shots and countering is a goaltender that destroys the confidence in said system by letting in weak goals from every angle.

And I don't think that's simple at all.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

The Wild have had 3 goalies all year. Their 11-6-3 record tells me it's not hurting them.

They have a guy they can't get rid of in Backstrom (M-NTC/35+) so he's not in serious consideration as a starter.

Dubnyk and Kuemper skated with the adults while Backstrom came out early to sweat through drills with goalie coach Bob Mason at the kiddie table. The 2009 Vezina Trophy finalist even lost his locker and had to dress on a folding chair in front of a makeshift stall, which the equipment guys will have to retrieve from storage.

So the goalie the Wild don't need but can't afford to jettison comes to work every day trying to stay relevant.
"I don't think there's any problem with that," said captain Mikko Koivu. "He's a true professional the way he still wants to play and still wants to do well. The way he works each and every day is special. I think it's great for us."

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_...-dont-need-but

So there's not really any goalie controversy as there is with other three goalie situations.

[tvp2003]

Might have been discussed in this thread or the other goaltending threads, but the competition didn't seem to hurt anyone when all three were lights out in the preseason.

The Flames (including Ramo) then get whipped on opening night and the floodgates open?

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

It sure seems to be destroying the Wild this year!

Thats a tad different though isn't it? They have a clear starter and backup tandem in Dubnyk(19 starts) and Kuemper(2 starts) with a 3rd string goalie in Backstrom.

I doubt there are any Wild fans on message boards calling for Backstrom to be given a chance ahead of the other 2. Or even fans asking for Kuemper to be given more starts ahead of Dubnyk. Their situation with their 3 is totally different to ours.

I do get your point, but I do think the comparison is a bit off.

[mikeecho]

Flames had Hiller and Ortio and under contract. Coach likes Ramo better and by all accounts has never had confidence in Hiller.

I believe the GM signed Ramo at the behest of the Coach, and I'm guessing (as many have) that the plan was to trade Hiller and it didn't pan out.

The next step should have been to waive Hiller and send him down. If he's claimed, you free up contract and cap space for an asset you likely wouldn't get much for in trade. If he doesn't get claimed, you have an option if Ramo falls flat to start the season.

I don't think it cost the team the season (there are too many other red flags to pin point just one thing), but I think it certainly was a mis-step to begin the season with 3 goalies.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

Thats a tad different though isn't it? They have a clear starter and backup tandem in Dubnyk(19 starts) and Kuemper(2 starts) with a 3rd string goalie in Backstrom.

I doubt there are any Wild fans on message boards calling for Backstrom to be given a chance ahead of the other 2. Or even fans asking for Kuemper to be given more starts ahead of Dubnyk. Their situation with their 3 is totally different to ours.

I do get your point, but I do think the comparison is a bit off.

Either way, they done it for almost 2 months, we did it for 2 weeks. But its destroyed us and had no effect on them? I don't buy it.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think you'd do better inserting a few "in my opinion" statements here and there.

Comes across a little less like Zeus on Mount Olympus that way.

I've seen it coaching kids, compensating for a weak link is a huge issue, especially if it's a goaltender.

The Flames had success last year because they never waivered from the system. Now they are, badly

It could be changes.
It could be tuning Hartley out.

But the absolute best way to destroy a system that relied on too much defensive zone time, blocking shots and countering is a goaltender that destroys the confidence in said system by letting in weak goals from every angle.

And I don't think that's simple at all.

Sure... but how does signing Karri Ramo cause all three goalies to simultaneously play like crap throughout September and October? How does signing Karri Ramo help cause the team to possibly tune Hartley out? How does signing Karri Ramo cause the defence to forget how to play defence and the offence to forget how to play offence?

How does having Joni Ortio in the dressing room "decimate club culture"?

I found it interesting that you think the skaters in front of the goalies felt like they had to do more, because what I am seeing is a team consistently doing less. Throughout October, they were not battling very hard. They weren't skating very fast. They weren't making smart plays. The Flames - from top to bottom - were not that group driven to prove everyone wrong. And that was evident from the drop of the very first puck on opening night. In my opinion, you have put the cart before the horse here.

Likewise, the idea that Treliving signed Ramo expecting to trade Hiller is, I am sorry to say, simplistic. It also flies in the face of everything Treliving has talked about and done. Namely, competition for jobs. If Treliving hadn't signed Ramo, he would have signed a Ramo equivalent. Because there is no way he was going to go into the season with a questionable starter in Hiller, an unproven goalie in Ortio and literally nothing else approaching NHL ready.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Likewise, the idea that Treliving signed Ramo expecting to trade Hiller is, I am sorry to say, simplistic. It also flies in the face of everything Treliving has talked about and done. Namely, competition for jobs. If Treliving hadn't signed Ramo, he would have signed a Ramo equivalent. Because there is no way he was going to go into the season with a questionable starter in Hiller, an unproven goalie in Ortio and literally nothing else approaching NHL ready.

Your first point ... I honestly think doing too much looks a lot like less when confidence comes out of the game. If it was just hard work I think they'd be nose to the grindstone a month ago when they realized quickly the season wasn't going to be easy. Instead they press ...

Treliving. He himself alluded to having thought he had something worked out that fell through, so no I think that's exactly what he had in mind. I don't know if it was sign Ramo and trade Hiller, or sign Ramo and tried either but he certainly hinted that this didn't go the way he planned.

[N-E-B]

The goaltending was a HUGE issue at the beginning of the year, but to me it seems a little too easy to pin all the blame on the goalies. Yes, they were terrible, and I'd argue we'd be a .500 team with competent goalies, but that's the problem right there. We'd be a .500 team. .500 teams do not make the playoffs.

I think this team just isn't good enough this year. I'm fine with that. Last year was a fun little break, but I would rather endure another year or two of pain to build a true contender than to have us consistently making the playoffs as a low seed.

There's a lot wrong with this team, and while the goalies are definitely a big part (arguably the biggest), they are not the only problem and I think it's unfair to blame a disaster this big on just the goalies.

[HelloHockeyFans]

The Ramo signing and its impact is a little over-stated to me. Was having all three guys up with the team at the same time really causing them to play the way they did?

Was having the three goalies up with the team also the reason the defensive game by the team, as a whole, way below expectations?

Maybe it was a little for the first question in my view and probably zero impact on the second question I think.

In an alternate world, Flames don't sign Ramo, still miss out on whomever Treliving was reportedly pursuing, go with Hiller and Ortio and perform the same way because the goalies left (Hiller and Ortio) still perform the way they have and we have people questioning why Treliving didn't explore signing Ramo to a 1-year for insurance.

The results this year can't be tied to a single event.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Did you write this story before or after my posts this morning because it's along the lines of what I was saying? I'm in line with your thinking although I feel even with great goaltending the team would be down from last season as the offensive production is down but to me July 1st was the catalyst for the poor start.

Oh EE...

[adc]

I think the 3 headed goalie situation is a nice and easy scape goat from overall poor play from the defense, forwards and especially the goalies. If the 3 goalies, or even one of them, were much better maybe I would believe that the 3 headed monster caused it but I think it is a case of 3 below average goalies playing poorly.

Hiller is on the down slope of his career and was just ok last year, Ramo has been bad every year he has been in the NHL and Ortio is a young guy with a pretty spotty NHL record so far. I think they just flat out played bad like bad goalies do at times.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Either way, they done it for almost 2 months, we did it for 2 weeks. But its destroyed us and had no effect on them? I don't buy it.

I fully agree. I would also add that Ortio did not even get a start durring that time. He did not get a full practice during those 2 weeks. The starter would get the whole practice and the other 2 would share a practice net. In my mind Ortio was not even a consideration for Hartley in the first 2 weeks. Ramo and Hiller battled all last season for starting goalie position. That did not change in the first 2 weeks of the season.

The situation was not ideal, but its not as bad as some posters make it out to be. If some posters want to blame the GM about the goalie situation, it should be for not getting a true starter for the season. Not the 3 "meh" goalies that the flames seem to have.

[troutman]

The three goalie "problem" is such a made up media controversy.

These are professional athletes. Someone is always coming for your job.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by FBI

There's a reason the 3 goalie system has worked for no team EVER.

Yes, I recall when the '03-04 Flames had Turek, Kiprusoff, and McLennan on the roster all at once. Worst team ever.