Russian SU-24 shot down by Turkey.

[MacDaddy77]

Originally Posted by Thor

I don't believe either side. I think both are lying, but to what degree who knows.

for the aviation experts in this thread I have a question

would there not be be another source for the flight radar? so far I've see the radar from Turkey and Russia,

Where is the US radar or an other NATO country. if they are all flying missions in proximity to that area I'm assuming they would be tracking ALL flight traffic.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by blankall

This just leads me back to seeing Turkey's foreign policy as very shortsighted. Although I'd agree that in the short-term, we are unlikely to see a Kurdish state, it is a long term goal for many. One of the greatest obstacles to such a state is Turkish influence. However, Turkey seems to be doing everything in their power to alienate the other states preventing that.

As others have mentioned, it might make sense from a short term political perspective. Stirring up animosity towards and conflict with the Kurdish population might be fueling support for the dominant Sunni orientated political parties in Turkey. However, from the long term perspective, it seems disastrous.

In the past, Turkey had the ability to lean on both the Western nations and Russia (as well as Iran and Israel) to prevent any kind of Kurdish autonomy along their border with Syria. Like you've said, if Russia is unsuccessful at re-instating Assad quickly, an option for them may be an alliance with Kurdish forces and a compromise involving an autonomous region. Given current events, I don't see Russia being very mindful of Turkey's interests going forward. In fact, Putin seems like the type to impose a large geo-political change just out of spit.

I prefer to talk of Erdogans foreign policy rather than Turkish policy, but other than that I agree. Erdogan originally did a pretty good job of posing as a west-oriented moderate originally, but over time he's turned more and more into a conservative islamist concerned mostly with staying in power.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

for the aviation experts in this thread I have a question

would there not be be another source for the flight radar? so far I've see the radar from Turkey and Russia,

Where is the US radar or an other NATO country. if they are all flying missions in proximity to that area I'm assuming they would be tracking ALL flight traffic.

Its a possibility that the American's had airborne radar around there if they were running strike packages, there could also be naval or ground coverage too.

The question is properly framed, is there an advantage to the Americans making an announcement or releasing footage?

[driveway]

That the Russians are deploying the S-400 is expected but frightening. That would be the first step in establishing a no-fly-zone.

Given that Russia's no-fly would likely cover western Syria and the way republican candidates (and Hillary) are touting their no-fly plan in Eastern IS held Syria, then you'd have both powers operating close to each other...

All Russia needs is a friendly regime in power. If Putin could be convinced to throw in and support one of the Rebel groups the US is okay with, this situation could actually resolve decently.

So long as Putin sticks by Assad there is going to be a risk of serious confrontation.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its a possibility that the American's had airborne radar around there if they were running strike packages, there could also be naval or ground coverage too.

The question is properly framed, is there an advantage to the Americans making an announcement or releasing footage?

If an American AWAC recorded this event I suspect nothing will be said unless Russia goes totally bonkers, proving Putin wrong would not help matters in this case.

Point should be who cares if the plane was in Turkeys airspace, they claim they didn't know it was Russian, if that's the case what if it was American,French or Canadian? What then?

Turkey is full of crap and have been threw out this whole conflict. They can shoot down a war plane going 600 mph over their border but can't stop a 30 mph convoy of illegal ISIS oil?

Obama/other country leaders and Stoltenberg need to cut out the crap and call out Turkey on it's support of ISIS. Has there ever been weaker leaders..ever?

[calgaryblood]

Where is the proof that Turkey is supporting ISIS? Where is the proof they are buying oil from ISIS?

We know for a fact that Russia is supporting Assad and he is bombing non-ISIS targets to help Assad.

[burn_this_city]

Its pretty well known that someone in Turkey is buying Daesh oil trucked across the border. I doubt its the government, but its sold on the black market to people in Turkey at a large discount.

[VladtheImpaler]

Erdogan is playing a really complicated game to ensure that he gets absolute power. Perhaps the end game is that he wants to re-create the Ottoman Caliphate (with himself becoming Caliph), hence the support for IS?

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Its pretty well known that someone in Turkey is buying Daesh oil trucked across the border. I doubt its the government, but its sold on the black market to people in Turkey at a large discount.

Which is not Turkey supporting ISIS or buying their oil.

That's like saying America buys cocaine from Columbia.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Which is not Turkey supporting ISIS or buying their oil.

That's like saying America buys cocaine from Columbia.

No, it's not. It's fairly hard to stop you smuggling cocaine in your anus. It's really not hard to interdict a convoy of tanker trucks. What with the satellites, drones, F-16s... That is if you want to.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Which is not Turkey supporting ISIS or buying their oil.

That's like saying America buys cocaine from Columbia.

Please How many convoys of 70 tonne trucks full of cocaine come into the USA.

From Oil to ISIS personal coming and going across it's borders Turkey has been looking the other way since the start.

[FlamesAddiction]

Turkey released recordings of warnings before the plane was shot down.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-...base-1.3337792

Not sure if that changes anything though. My personal opinion is that I think Russia was purposely testing Turkey/NATO, but that a minor violation of airspace shouldn't be cause to shoot the plane down unless they were expecting an attack.

[CaptainCrunch]

Russia has a history of testing airspace. they spent a lot of time probing the Canada's arctic airspace to test our response times and abilities. That went away for a while when the Soviet economy and military collapsed. But Putin has spearheaded a resurgence in military spending and Russia is doing a lot of probing of Canadian Airspace and our ocean borders.

It wouldn't surprise me if this incursion was intentional to see what Turkey's reaction was going to be, and how quick it was going to happen.

[polak]

This is all a ruse for them to be able to quietly get ready to take over the arctic.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

No, it's not. It's fairly hard to stop you smuggling cocaine in your anus. It's really not hard to interdict a convoy of tanker trucks. What with the satellites, drones, F-16s... That is if you want to.

You really believe no drugs come in to the USA on planes? Tankers? Big rigs?

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by T@T

Please How many convoys of 70 tonne trucks full of cocaine come into the USA.

From Oil to ISIS personal coming and going across it's borders Turkey has been looking the other way since the start.

A lot of drugs come to the U.S through Mexico on planes and the U.S can't control that. A much smaller and weaker country like Turkey now should be an expert at stopping these guys?

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

You really believe no drugs come in to the USA on planes? Tankers? Big rigs?

Don't be an idiot.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

A lot of drugs come to the U.S through Mexico on planes and the U.S can't control that. A much smaller and weaker country like Turkey now should be an expert at stopping these guys?

Turkey and their military isn't small or weak.

[VladtheImpaler]

Dp

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Erdogan is playing a really complicated game to ensure that he gets absolute power. Perhaps the end game is that he wants to re-create the Ottoman Caliphate (with himself becoming Caliph), hence the support for IS?

He's the least trustworthy and hardest to read out of all the leaders in the conflict. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some aspirations to crush the Kurds and claim portions of Syria for the old empire.