[News] CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Funny, I made this post 3 months ago and nothing has changed:

Recycled joke. Just like King's recycled interviews. I suppose to be more accurate, Homer would have to have a proud look on his face as he presents the vision to Mr. Burns...

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Who says King doesn't know what he's doing? Just because some people don't like him or the announcement that doesn't mean that he's some major blunder in this project. The truth is likely opposite as the owners didn't get rich by hiring incompetent people to run their businesses. Since King has managed the ship the Flames have seamlessly absorbed the Roughnecks and Stampeders. I'm not his biggest fan myself but I acknowledge that he's not the inexperienced schumck that haters of the proposal like to paint. There's people here that are not on board and will never be and if you look at this thread it's the same people being vocal. Just because they say something does not make it true or even plausible.

How many construction projects has he managed and sold? So far we're only in the selling stage and it isn't going smoothly. I'm not saying he won't succeed eventually because it's something that is needed but his first steps have missed the mark.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

How many construction projects has he managed and sold? So far we're only in the selling stage and it isn't going smoothly. I'm not saying he won't succeed eventually because it's something that is needed but his first steps have missed the mark.

Every other request for public funds for stadiums have always been dirty fights. I don't think it was going to go smoothly, especially considering the funding model proposed.

But, just because it is facing backlash doesn't mean it won't succeed.

[Kavvy]

How much public money did the Calgary Airport get for their 2 billion dollar expansion which will benefit Calgarians a lot more than a new stadium?

Honest question, but if it is 0 it puts the whole Sham of CalgaryNEXT into perspective.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

How much public money did the Calgary Airport get for their 2 billion dollar expansion which will benefit Calgarians a lot more than a new stadium?

Honest question, but if it is 0 it puts the whole Sham of CalgaryNEXT into perspective.

I think they got 2 billion...

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

How much public money did the Calgary Airport get for their 2 billion dollar expansion which will benefit Calgarians a lot more than a new stadium?

Honest question, but if it is 0 it puts the whole Sham of CalgaryNEXT into perspective.

I don't think that answer will prove the point you are trying to make. I frankly can't find all of the info on the net, but I am pretty sure there is Federal money involved for the airport itself, provincial and city funding for intersection upgrades, city money on a tunnel that has limited benefit and a absolute certainty of user fees (likely hidden in the ticket price).

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

I don't think that answer will prove the point you are trying to make. I frankly can't find all of the info on the net, but I am pretty sure there is Federal money involved for the airport itself, provincial and city funding for intersection upgrades, city money on a tunnel that has limited benefit and a absolute certainty of user fees (likely hidden in the ticket price).

user fees would prove my point.

everyone is for a seat levy.

But you ran into the same issue I did, I couldn't find the funding model!

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

user fees would prove my point.

everyone is for a seat levy.

But you ran into the same issue I did, I couldn't find the funding model!

I think it's a screwy comparison. Airports are infrastructure that governments have turned into a profit centre because they are a monopoly - except for places where people can and do drive across the border. Thats not without costs of its own and the economics are way different.

Even forgetting that, the flames and stamps would be west jet and air canada in this analogy. And guess how much of that $2b they paid up front for their facility?

But...
The conference board has great info on airport funding if you want to check it out. It's a complicated beast. Airports pay rent and a zillion other fees, don't own their land, and must operate as non profits.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

user fees would prove my point.

everyone is for a seat levy.

But you ran into the same issue I did, I couldn't find the funding model!

Yeah, I was surprised the model wasn't basically public.

I don't think the user fee proves much of anything. The Flames recognize the user fee component. They are arguing that there is a public benefit (which I think is overstated by them, but I suppose the $200mm for the fieldhouse is legit). The biggie is all of the infrastructure costs for roadways and environmental remediation. IIRC, the city had to negotiate the inclusion of the tunnel at the airport, and part of that led to agreeing to road and intersection upgrades in the area. The airport authority didn't pay for that, the city and province will. Is that really much different than the city paying for upgrades to bow trail/crowchild? I would argue not, as those upgrades are desperately needed. Now, if those upgrades are much more costly due to the arena/fieldhouse, then I agree that the Flames should be on the hook for more of that cost.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Every other request for public funds for stadiums have always been dirty fights. I don't think it was going to go smoothly, especially considering the funding model proposed.

The length of time this took just to get a proposal out, and the strongly negative public reaction (even on this board, which presumably is far more pro-Flames than the public at large), seem to be out of the norm. While I agree that these things never go smoothly, I don't think they're typically this badly handled either.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

The biggie is all of the infrastructure costs for roadways and environmental remediation.

Something that is often forgotten and IMO should be added to that list is the opportunity cost of using the land.

The environmental cleanup is inevitable (the province should be on the hook for most of this IMO). It is the most prime real estate in the city - I think a couple dozen high density condo towers would generate more revenue for the city, and be more beneficial to the city as a whole.

There are several other areas (a few within the same/closer distance to downtown) that would be more suitable to build a couple huge barns. My pick is Remington lot (between CN tracks and Stampede)...a truly ugly area that would be made more beautiful with these buildings.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Something that is often forgotten and IMO should be added to that list is the opportunity cost of using the land.

The environmental cleanup is inevitable (the province should be on the hook for most of this IMO). It is the most prime real estate in the city - I think a couple dozen high density condo towers would generate more revenue for the city, and be more beneficial to the city as a whole.

There are several other areas (a few within the same/closer distance to downtown) that would be more suitable to build a couple huge barns. My pick is Remington lot (between CN tracks and Stampede)...a truly ugly area that would be made more beautiful with these buildings.

Personally, I would prefer for this to be built there. Move the Bus depot elsewhere, and you can still get the same stadium complex/residential/office buildings that the Flames are advertising for the West Village. Granted since it's not city/CSEC owned property (as far as I know), this may be a challenge. It should be cheaper overall since you don't have to do environmental cleanup and major road infrastructure work.

Those are going to be done anyway, but I think it would be better for this project to be in the north part of Victoria Park because the surrounding area is more prepared to support a project of this stature. East Village is looking like it's going to be a smashing success, and the activity around this vicinity would take advantage of the amenities from day 1.

Having Calgary Stampede to the south, Fort Calgary to the north (which is a hot spot currently to host music festivals), and the National Music Centre right across the tracks, the CalgaryNEXT project would add to the east end of downtown that has become an entertainment HUB.

Another perk is that it's easier to access transit wise since all route lines, including the future green line, will all have stations within walking distance. Eliminating the need to transfer and congest just one line.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

I don't think that answer will prove the point you are trying to make. I frankly can't find all of the info on the net, but I am pretty sure there is Federal money involved for the airport itself, provincial and city funding for intersection upgrades, city money on a tunnel that has limited benefit and a absolute certainty of user fees (likely hidden in the ticket price).

The Airport Expansion is paid for almost entirely by "user fees" i.e. the hidden tax on every flight that accesses the terminal.

The tunnel had nothing to do with the airport - the airport mostly said they didn't need it. Yes, it runs past the airport, that's about it. The city needs it for it's own purposes- and if by "limited benefit" you mean "Already has paid for itself in future savings" than you are correct.

[CroFlames]

That new runway has made my parents house a lot noisier that's for true.

[rayne008]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Personally, I would prefer for this to be built there. Move the Bus depot elsewhere, and you can still get the same stadium complex/residential/office buildings that the Flames are advertising for the West Village. Granted since it's not city/CSEC owned property (as far as I know), this may be a challenge. It should be cheaper overall since you don't have to do environmental cleanup and major road infrastructure work.

Those are going to be done anyway, but I think it would be better for this project to be in the north part of Victoria Park because the surrounding area is more prepared to support a project of this stature. East Village is looking like it's going to be a smashing success, and the activity around this vicinity would take advantage of the amenities from day 1.

Having Calgary Stampede to the south, Fort Calgary to the north (which is a hot spot currently to host music festivals), and the National Music Centre right across the tracks, the CalgaryNEXT project would add to the east end of downtown that has become an entertainment HUB.

Another perk is that it's easier to access transit wise since all route lines, including the future green line, will all have stations within walking distance. Eliminating the need to transfer and congest just one line.

Totally agree - Although it's been mentioned many times that it's privately owned land and that the Flames want to be far away from the Stampede board - I just do get how this wouldn't be the ideal location.

That would also allow that stampede trail entertainment district to go ahead.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by rayne008

Totally agree - Although it's been mentioned many times that it's privately owned land and that the Flames want to be far away from the Stampede board - I just do get how this wouldn't be the ideal location.

That would also allow that stampede trail entertainment district to go ahead.

Being off Stampede lands would suffice for CSEC. No need to be "far away" as well. Not sure exactly what you mean by your comments on Stampede Trail. Developing the Railtown lands would not preclude Stampede Trail development though, and would actually enable and enhance it.

The Remington Railtown lands in east Beltline would also likely require some environmental cleanup and remediation, although the severity, ownership history and logistics would make it a lot easier.

I believe it to be the best location due to current and future transportation and cultural realities and opportunities.

The upcoming Green Line LRT will have a station right there, directly connecting far north central and far southeast Calgary and points in between. All other areas currently served by LRT would be easily-enough connected via a short walk to City Hall Station (no more than from the current Saddledome to Stampede Station); or a via a transfer from the Green Line. The future High Speed Rail station will also be directly connected. Land has been purchased by the province for a station on the south side of the CPR tracks east of 4th Street SE.

A previous concept for the Remington Railtown lands included a pedestrian bridge over the CPR tracks at roughly 6th Street SE. Riverwalk will be closeby as well, connecting through the existing 7th Street SE underpass and going all along the Elbow River. This is in addition to the new 4th Street SE underpass connection.

The stadium/arena on these lands would likely spur the purchase and relocation of the Transit Centre to the east, opening up this prime riverfront land for development of quality residential condos. Other nearby lots east of MacLeod Trail would also be redeveloped as condos.

As mentioned, it would enable and enhance Stampede's planned Stampede Trail commercial development, which would involve connecting 4th Street SE through the grounds, hooking up to an extended 17th Avenue SE across the existing LRT tracks. With multiple connections across the CPR tracks to the north, the Railtown lands would be easily accessible to and from the National Music Centre, Central Library, East Village and the eastern Central Business District.

Existing conditions and future opportunities, while not insignificant, do not measure up with West Village in terms of scale nor ease.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The length of time this took just to get a proposal out, and the strongly negative public reaction (even on this board, which presumably is far more pro-Flames than the public at large), seem to be out of the norm. While I agree that these things never go smoothly, I don't think they're typically this badly handled either.

This board is pro-Flames but I don't think it translates to pro-public funding or pro-Ken King, which seems to be the centre of a lot of the objections.

Other non-Flames specific sites have a lot less vitriolic opposition to CalgaryNext IMO.

[rayne008]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Being off Stampede lands would suffice for CSEC. No need to be "far away" as well. Not sure exactly what you mean by your comments on Stampede Trail. Developing the Railtown lands would not preclude Stampede Trail development though, and would actually enable and enhance it.

The Remington Railtown lands in east Beltline would also likely require some environmental cleanup and remediation, although the severity, ownership history and logistics would make it a lot easier.

I believe it to be the best location due to current and future transportation and cultural realities and opportunities.

The upcoming Green Line LRT will have a station right there, directly connecting far north central and far southeast Calgary and points in between. All other areas currently served by LRT would be easily-enough connected via a short walk to City Hall Station (no more than from the current Saddledome to Stampede Station); or a via a transfer from the Green Line. The future High Speed Rail station will also be directly connected. Land has been purchased by the province for a station on the south side of the CPR tracks east of 4th Street SE.

A previous concept for the Remington Railtown lands included a pedestrian bridge over the CPR tracks at roughly 6th Street SE. Riverwalk will be closeby as well, connecting through the existing 7th Street SE underpass and going all along the Elbow River. This is in addition to the new 4th Street SE underpass connection.

The stadium/arena on these lands would likely spur the purchase and relocation of the Transit Centre to the east, opening up this prime riverfront land for development of quality residential condos. Other nearby lots east of MacLeod Trail would also be redeveloped as condos.

As mentioned, it would enable and enhance Stampede's planned Stampede Trail commercial development, which would involve connecting 4th Street SE through the grounds, hooking up to an extended 17th Avenue SE across the existing LRT tracks. With multiple connections across the CPR tracks to the north, the Railtown lands would be easily accessible to and from the National Music Centre, Central Library, East Village and the eastern Central Business District.

That's what I mean about Stampede Trail, I can't see it happening without the arena there.

Existing conditions and future opportunities, while not insignificant, do not measure up with West Village in terms of scale nor ease.

Exactly!

[frinkprof]

^Ah yeah I think you had a double negative in your previous post that I read incorrectly. We're on the same page.

[powderjunkie]

^Not that it matters, but I didn't see a single negative in his post, let alone double. Maybe it was something somewhere else.

Originally Posted by frinkprof

The future High Speed Rail station will also be directly connected. Land has been purchased by the province for a station on the south side of the CPR tracks east of 4th Street SE.

That's interesting, I have never seen anything substantial about high speed rail. Do you have any links? I can only find the usual speculative news articles.