Explosion near Stadium in Paris, multiple shootings and hostage taking...

[T@T]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Good question actually. It's tough to say why I wouldn't report my friend. But the guy was like a brother to me. I knew his parents, his siblings, his cousins, uncles, etc. They were all very good people. They all knew that he had issues, but we all knew that he couldn't hurt a fly. We knew that he was a great guy that might have just been going through a "phase".... this wasn't the first phase he went through.

Also CSIS was keeping close tabs on him from what he told me. They visited his house a few times, detained him, questioned his family, some of our friends. So why would I add to this? Why would I rat my friend out if the government already has a pretty good idea with regards to who this guy is. Besides, he hadn't committed a crime or anything, he was just a bit weird.

I was actually talking about reporting the mosque's imam, I don't get it really, after attacks (first world trade center,London..etc.) we keep hearing about mosque leaders pushing radical actions but nobody turns them in.

Do we need crime-stoppers for muslims but instead of money we offer virgins?

j/k of course, but seriously the muslim world need to report this stuff from it's religious leaders or it'll never end.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

I think he meant more...why not report the Imam?

Sorry, I must have misunderstood.

I actually told a friend of mine about what went on in that mosque. My friend told me that he had heard about this Imam, that he was kicked out of the US for being too extreme. That his mosque here in Calgary was removed from the mainstream Calgary Islamic Society. That CSIS has been watching him and that they probably know who I am now because I've been hanging out with the wrong people.

So I was told that I should stay away, not to do anything stupid, pretend I never went to this mosque and to just focus on my own stuff. Maybe I was young and naive, but I did exactly that.

The imam no longer preaches here in Calgary by the way. From my understanding, CSIS and the RCMP are doing a very good job in cracking down on extremism in this city.

[jayswin]

Yeah, I was talking with a guy at work a few weeks ago that referenced the "brotherhood". We love debating, and we're both easy going guys so I was poking at him as to why he wouldn't wear a poppy, in a sarcastic way, knowing why he doesn't.

Anyways, from that conversation he spoke about how as Muslims they are supposed to be part of the "brotherhood". The brotherhood doesn't really recognize countries, it's just Muslims identifying with each other and no one else not matter where they are.

He immigrated to Canada in 2000 but holds no pride for this country, and does not identify with it in any way, he identifies with the brotherhood of Muslims.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Yeah, I was talking with a guy at work a few weeks ago that referenced the "brotherhood". We love debating, and we're both easy going guys so I was poking at him as to why he wouldn't wear a poppy, in a sarcastic way, knowing why he doesn't.

Anyways, from that conversation he spoke about how as Muslims they are supposed to be part of the "brotherhood". The brotherhood doesn't really recognize countries, it's just Muslims identifying with each other and no one else not matter where they are.

He immigrated to Canada in 2000 but holds no pride for this country, and does not identify with it in any way, he identifies with the brotherhood of Muslims.

Since you know, out of curiosity why wouldn't a canadian muslim wear a poppy?


MOD EDIT: No rude comments, please.

[flylock shox]

Good discussion in this thread. Very interesting and great to have some of our Muslim members answering questions.

The story of Q's friend isn't far from that of gang recruitment of teenagers. Young, self esteem issues, a feeling of separation from those around you and ultimately coping with that by rejecting society and its norms. Eventually kids gravitate to something that gives them belonging and a sense of power and importance.

I expect this sort of thing is even easier to drift into in the Internet age, where virtual connections are easily made and may be more powerful and influential than real social connections (which are weakening and may be negative).

I think there are lots of people who feel they don't belong, or are outsiders, even if it's just in their own minds. They're looking for something that validates them and gives them purpose and importance. Add some political/religious leanings and the leap from angry outsider to religious radical shrinks away.

[_Q_]

"Why do you want to be a part of this society that has done nothing but oppress you? This society that worships money and sex? This society where you are taught that it is OK to be homosexual? This society that degrades your sisters because they want to live in modesty and not show off their bodies to strange men? This society that oppresses your brothers in Iraq, in Palestine, in Afghanistan, in Syria and in Chechniya the same way they oppress you? My brother, you are strong, and they are weak. They are afraid of death and you love death because you are a good Muslim and all Muslims belong in paradise. They are afraid of us because we are stronger than them, do not let them oppress you my brother, this is all a test from Allah."

That's the type of stuff I'm talking about.

[jayswin]

n

Originally Posted by T@T

Since you know, out of curiosity why wouldn't a canadian muslim wear a poppy?

Sorry, I should clarify, I knew why he specifically wouldn't wear a poppy because we had been over it before. I wasn't suggesting Canadian Muslims don't wear poppies.

For him it was because Canadian soldiers died for Canada, and because he doesn't identify with us he doesn't wear one. I've prodded him before saying that obviously you saw something in Canada and came here, so even if they died along time ago for this country they still technically died for you too, as you're here now enjoying the freedoms you enjoy in Canada.

He stated that he just came to a country because there was fighting in his country and he wanted safety and that if it wasn't Canada he came to it would be somewhere else. He's actually kind of frustrating to debate with on this stuff, especially for a proud Canadian like me, but in the end he's a nice guy who really cares about family, so I don't hold it against him.

edit: More than anything, he hates nationalism and believes that Canadian and American governments have killed others for their beliefs, and that we shouldn't celebrate anything that's done on behalf of our governments and that we are no better than the governments around the world that westerners condemn.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Thanks. It's very interesting.

The strange part to me is why they care about the geo-politics of the middle east. Do you? I don't care at all about what happens in Asia. I'm not sure an Italian or Brazillian born in Canada would care much about Italy or Brazil

I guess I'm an assimilated Canadian. I'm not that religious either.

So I feel Muslims have a lot of pressures in society so maybe that's why they feel it's an uphill battle?

I would say that there's some form of tribalism in most people. Take for example what happened in Paris. Would there be this sort of outrage in the West had isis done the exact same thing in a non-Western country? The taliban slaughtered kids in a Pakistani school, Al-Shabaab shot up a Kenyan school, heck just one day before isis blew up people in a Beirut market. You didn't see this much coverage/outrage. The same goes for Muslims. Saudi Arabia is bombing the hell out of Yemen with all sorts of civilian casualties, not much outrage from Muslims. And really that is the main problem in the world, most people either consciously or subconsciously feel as though they are part of a team, and any condemnation is dependent on that to some degree.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

I'm wondering, if I may...do you have to join Islam in the first place? While I get that while you are part of the religion that leaving is not going to happen without dire consequences...do you have to join in the first place?

Sorry, I don't completely understand your question. Are you asking if one is born Muslim if they have to be a Muslim?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by _Q_

This society that worships money and sex?

Wouldn't the world be awesome if Muslims liked these things as well.

[2Stonedbirds]

Soo... we just kinda have mosque's with radical imams, operating at a rate such that the RCMP and CSIS have them under their thumb, people born in another country that after many years of living in this country do not/cannot identify with being a Canadian, warn of the evil westerners and their weakness, and how death is a welcome gift?

Um... what?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I would say that there's some form of tribalism in most people. Take for example what happened in Paris. Would there be this sort of outrage in the West had isis done the exact same thing in a non-Western country? The taliban slaughtered kids in a Pakistani school, Al-Shabaab shot up a Kenyan school, heck just one day before isis blew up people in a Beirut market. You didn't see this much coverage/outrage. The same goes for Muslims. Saudi Arabia is bombing the hell out of Yemen with all sorts of civilian casualties, not much outrage from Muslims. And really that is the main problem in the world, most people either consciously or subconsciously feel as though they are part of a team, and any condemnation is dependent on that to some degree.

Yes, this is what the guy from work talks about a lot, I didn't articulate it very well in my post. But there's a heavy feeling that westerners are just as tribal if not more tribal to a "team" but we tend to think because we feel our "team" is right, that it's okay when we do it.

I can definitely see his point and more and more these days I try to seek out alternative (see: non north American) views on everything that happens to try to see if I can catch myself just nodding with anything that comes from our side of the world, and of course we all do it.

Obviously you can argue that we do a lot of things very well in North America, especially when it comes to freedom that makes us the envy of much of the world. But we're not right about everything and our governments, especially the US definitely make decisions on what's right and wrong around the world and then act with deadly punishment. So he gets frustrated that a lot us over here seem to have no ability to see/admit our own tribalism.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I would say that there's some form of tribalism in most people. Take for example what happened in Paris. Would there be this sort of outrage in the West had isis done the exact same thing in a non-Western country? The taliban slaughtered kids in a Pakistani school, Al-Shabaab shot up a Kenyan school, heck just one day before isis blew up people in a Beirut market. You didn't see this much coverage/outrage. The same goes for Muslims. Saudi Arabia is bombing the hell out of Yemen with all sorts of civilian casualties, not much outrage from Muslims. And really that is the main problem in the world, most people either consciously or subconsciously feel as though they are part of a team, and any condemnation is dependent on that to some degree.

hmmm

I don't know bout that. There are conflicts everywhere. Myanmar, Thailand, Indonesia, all over Africa, Ukraine etc.. Yes the western media does pick and choose. They are outraged that Russia invaded Ukraine but if China invaded Laos i don't think anyone would care. Americans have bases everywhere in the Pacific and stick their nose in everyone's business. They control the corrupt government of the Philippines and Filipinos were the most immigrated people to Canada last year. But they're not upset that their country is bring controlled by the west and they really are just an American puppet state. Once they are in Canada they adapt. Become Canadian and move forward, don't look back.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I would say that there's some form of tribalism in most people. Take for example what happened in Paris. Would there be this sort of outrage in the West had isis done the exact same thing in a non-Western country? The taliban slaughtered kids in a Pakistani school, Al-Shabaab shot up a Kenyan school, heck just one day before isis blew up people in a Beirut market. You didn't see this much coverage/outrage. The same goes for Muslims. Saudi Arabia is bombing the hell out of Yemen with all sorts of civilian casualties, not much outrage from Muslims. And really that is the main problem in the world, most people either consciously or subconsciously feel as though they are part of a team, and any condemnation is dependent on that to some degree.

You have a point but because Paris isn't a war zone it will get more attention, Muslims killing muslims sadly is like gang wars in Chicago, nobody cares as long as it remains within the gangs. It's actually puzzling the world doesn't hunt the Al-Shabaab down though.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Soo... we just kinda have mosque's with radical imams, operating at a rate such that the RCMP and CSIS have them under their thumb, people born in another country that after many years of living in this country do not/cannot identify with being a Canadian, warn of the evil westerners and their weakness, and how death is a welcome gift?

Um... what?

This is news to you?

There's a reason why most terrorists in the West are home grown.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Soo... we just kinda have mosque's with radical imams, operating at a rate such that the RCMP and CSIS have them under their thumb, people born in another country that after many years of living in this country do not/cannot identify with being a Canadian, warn of the evil westerners and their weakness, and how death is a welcome gift?

Um... what?

Canada's not short on nutbars.

There's all sorts of hateful, potentially dangerous, wacky people knocking around within our borders. Religious crazies, Freemen, hate groups like Storm Front, Canucks fans, all sorts of people that pose varying degrees of threat.

What we hear about in the media tends only to be the ones who have actually done some damage.

[jeffman]

Originally Posted by _Q_

This is news to you?

There's a reason why most terrorists in the West are home grown.

How popular would you say these mosques are in Calgary?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by jeffman

How popular would you say these mosques are in Calgary?

Not popular at all from what I can tell.

Like I said, there was one that I knew of about 12 years ago and it was shut down immediately.

Generally speaking, all the mosques here teach a mainstream, moderate interpretation of Islam. From what I can tell, a lot of the garbage has been cleaned up in the last decade or so.

With that said, I'm not sure what's happening in the dark corners of this city, in people's basements, away from public scrutiny. But that can be said about any and all crazies, not just the muslim kind.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Not popular at all from what I can tell.

Like I said, there was one that I knew of about 12 years ago and it was shut down immediately.

Generally speaking, all the mosques here teach a mainstream, moderate interpretation of Islam. From what I can tell, a lot of the garbage has been cleaned up in the last decade or so.

With that said, I'm not sure what's happening in the dark corners of this city, in people's basements, away from public scrutiny. But that can be said about any and all crazies, not just the muslim kind.

What about the Muslim sectarian part? Sunni's and Shia's hate each other, are there different mosques for each sect or is all forgotten once they move to Canada?

[killer_carlson]

Moderate muslims have done a much better job at distancing themselves from radicals through actions and words. This should be applauded and encouraged.