Senate Intelligence Committee: No connection between Iraq and al-Qaeda

[octothorp]

nm.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Well, I'm just looking for alternative reasonings (you know, why they REALLY wanted to go in) that make sense. I've never seen one of those either.

i'll take a stab.

the neo-cons running US foreign policy are BIG fans of strauss. <shiver>

they have huge designs, all written in black and white, their sick ideology in everyone's faces, cloaked in very clean-sounding terms.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

http://www.newamericancentury.org/Re...asDefenses.pdf

#1) turn off the oil tap
saddam hussein was over-producing, more than OPEC would prefer. the oil-for-food was also oil-under-the-table-for-cash. oil prices were not sky-high. you can't 'steal' oil, it's always bought off the people living on it, and always sold at the pumps. but you can control the middle man, and you can influence the demand with a hand on the supply tap.

#2) the reserves
iraq's oil is a particularly sweet blend, highly prized by the refieners, and it is easy and cheap to tap. its proven reserves are usually #3 or #4 on most lists (they vary widely) and any doomsday scenario featuring a breakdown of international security means these reserves are in the top-five-list of prime prizes on this earth. the irony of breaking down international security to seize what will become valuable as the landslide starts hasn't quite registered with sickos of this mighty calibre.

#3) strategic position
iraq is some of the most strategic real estate property in the world. it borders kuwait, saudi arabia, iran, all major sources of easy oil. forces deployed in iraq can easily threaten major oil shipping routes, thus CONTROLLING them.

#4) israel
some of the more aggressive of israel's long-term planners have long had iraq in their crosshairs, favouring a breakup into three or four parts to remove the arab world's secular and economic powerhouse of modern development. education, technical proficiency, womens' rights, etc. - eventually iraq would have been a threat to israel's interests, eventually it would be strong enough to pose an actual threat.

#5) saudi arabia / kuwait / OPEC long-term interests
the arab world in general had long put up with saddam's excesses in the name of a champion, a modern state with modern ideas - who cares if a few iraqis get smooshed on the way, eggs / omelettes. but some arab countries like saudi arabia and kuwait clearly had designs, and clearly put the fix in. saudi arabia in particular is so rife with corruption that before the first gulf war, they ran budget deficits when oil was less than $20 per barrel, despite the bargain-basement price of extraction. they refused to pay the MASSIVE war debt that iraq had run up arming against iran, despite their promise to do so, and iraq was going to be completely broke. kuwait slant-drilling into iraq was the final straw. uncle sam kindly said nothing when the subject of sacking kuwait was brought up to them, but much more vocal when it actually happened. betrayal by fellow arabs? NO WAY!

#6) the sickos
the wacko agendas of the black-ops black-world, including training large amounts of soldiers in torture, and de-sensitizing them to treating other humans like animals. get a whole bunch of loyal robots, just in case you want to use them domestically. iraq is the perfect training ground, sectarian 'police', saddam's old boys, etc. are taking american greenhorns out on patrol and showing them what to do with the civilian supporters of enemies. this can not be under-emphasized.

as iraq descends into civil war and the americans become completely entrenched in their HUGE bases, ask yourselves what the long term-plans actually are.

i could go on and on but the question remains, why NOT invade iraq?

[Vulcan]

I kinda look at it as George Bush strutting around declaring I'm the King of the World and showing everyone how powerfull he is. In fact he's a very small man.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I kinda look at it as George Bush strutting around declaring I'm the King of the World and showing everyone how powerfull he is. In fact he's a very small man.

Not really.

He is the most powerful man in the world.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Well, I'm just looking for alternative reasonings (you know, why they REALLY wanted to go in) that make sense. I've never seen one of those either.

I don't know why they did it, but I know the reasons they gave for it turned out to be false.

My theory is that they were arrogant and incompetent. Considering the popular alternatives, I think it's a pretty reasonable (if not downright charitable) theory.

[drp_69]

I am pleased to see that Looger has it all figured out.....!?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not really.

He is the most powerful man in the world.

With about as much sense as Mike Tyson.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by drp_69

I am pleased to see that Looger has it all figured out.....!?

why even bother figuring it out when the leading members of an administration, the authors of its policies, publish their aims?

check out those PNAC links if you think i'm making all of this up.

also an eye should be kept out for the defence journals, the industry publications, etc. - the stuff that the pros read. lots of ideas get floated there, like this one to redraw the entire mideast:

http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899

As for those who refuse to "think the unthinkable," declaring that boundaries must not change and that's that, it pays to remember that boundaries have never stopped changing through the centuries. Borders have never been static, and many frontiers, from Congo through Kosovo to the Caucasus, are changing even now (as ambassadors and special representatives avert their eyes to study the shine on their wingtips).
Oh, and one other dirty little secret from 5,000 years of history: Ethnic cleansing works.

[Displaced Flames fan]

The PNAC links are old news on this website Looger. Sorry, there is nothing earth shattering there.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

The PNAC links are old news on this website Looger. Sorry, there is nothing earth shattering there.

then... why are so many people muttering that they can't figure out america's psychopathic foreign policy?

nothing earth shattering? has anyone actually READ that stuff?

thought so.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Yep.

A couple of years ago at Lanny's request.

I'm not sure why you find it so alarming that a thinktank exists to promote strong and proactive military strategies for the US.

There are equally radical thinktanks that produce equally radical papers on equally radical ideas dozens of times over.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Yep.

A couple of years ago at Lanny's request.

I'm not sure why you find it so alarming that a thinktank exists to promote strong and proactive military strategies for the US.

There are equally radical thinktanks that produce equally radical papers on equally radical ideas dozens of times over.

what i find radical is that his particular think-tank was started by the pentagon and white house top positions, and that people scratch their heads wondering 'why is the US doing this?'

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Looger

what i find radical is that his particular think-tank was started by the pentagon and white house top positions, and that people scratch their heads wondering 'why is the US doing this?'

I don't recognize the creators of the NPAC as names from either the White House or of high ranking military officials.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I don't recognize the creators of the NPAC as names from either the White House or of high ranking military officials.

That's true: and some of them, notably Bill Kristol, are notorious blowhards that are a bit hard to take seriously. But wasn't Paul Wolfowitz involved in PNAC at one time? I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that somewhere. And for better or for worse, Bush's foreign policy of pre-emption seems to depend heavily on PNAC's crazier policy statements.

Mind you--that doesn't mean there's a vast conspiracy here. It just means that the people in charge are reading the wrong policy papers from the wrong wackos. As for the "real" reason, my own suspicion is that the interests being served were political--and they were domestic. This theory has the advantage of not being a conspiracy theory--it's well known that American politicians like to "wag the dog" in this way. Where they miscalculated was that they, like PNAC, were so enamored of the idea of the US as the moral center of the world, that they forgot to adequately analyze what the costs might be. Who can forget Cheney bragging that the US would be "greeted as liberators"?

Anyway, that last paragraph will probably go down in history as one of the wackier things I've said--and for what it's worth I fully recognize that all of that is mere conjecture on my part. It's a theory that I like for its simplicity, though.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I don't recognize the creators of the NPAC as names from either the White House or of high ranking military officials.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...gnatories_were:

Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Steve Forbes, Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, William Kristol, J. Danforth Quayle, William J. Bennett,I. Lewis Scooter Libby, Norman Podhoretz, J. Danforth Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald H. Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, Paul Dundes Wolfowitz

the original 25

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I don't recognize the creators of the NPAC as names from either the White House or of high ranking military officials.

Cheney and Rumsfeld are part of that crowd. They signed their names.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Where they miscalculated was that they, like PNAC, were so enamored of the idea of the US as the moral center of the world, that they forgot to adequately analyze what the costs might be. Who can forget Cheney bragging that the US would be "greeted as liberators"?

the costs: are a bunch of dead american soldiers and dead iraqi civilians.

the benefits: more hatred and resentment in the world, more terrorism, more instability, more oil profits for their oil buddies, and more arms dealing for their arms dealing buddies, more ownership of resources, closer to armageddon for their armageddon interests, closer to total financial 'collapse' for their banking buddies.

i think iraq is a raging success. and it's only getting 'better'.

[Displaced Flames fan]

That link totally disproves what you said and I won't even go into the likely editorialization of your non-partisan source website.

You said that PNAC was started by people at the highest levels of the White House and Pentagon. NOT TRUE.

I said none of the creators of PNAC or the author's of the policy paper in question were high ranking executive or military officils. TRUE.

Stretch the truth much?

I see radical war monger Steve Forbes is among the PNAC elite.

You're reaching, just like Lanny was. But it fits your theories so it must be right because I am just an ignorant sheep. Going back to sleep now. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Cheney and Rumsfeld are part of that crowd. They signed their names.

Yep.

Not creators nor author's though as Looger emphatically stated.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

That link totally disproves what you said and I won't even go into the likely editorialization of your non-partisan source website.

You said that PNAC was started by people at the highest levels of the White House and Pentagon. NOT TRUE.

I said none of the creators of PNAC or the author's of the policy paper in question were high ranking executive or military officils. TRUE.

Stretch the truth much?

I see radical war monger Steve Forbes is among the PNAC elite.

You're reaching, just like Lanny was. But it fits your theories so it must be right because I am just an ignorant sheep. Going back to sleep now. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

at the time they weren't at the highest levels, now they are.

brilliant post by the way.