Bad Goaltending vs Bad D

[Table 5]

Sadly, I think this is a case where that little "Why not have both?" taco girl gif could apply. Both goaltending and defence have been pretty suspect this year, and are compounding the other's problems.

[polak]

Both. Our D and our Goalies are the worst in the NHL.

Problem is we committed to this D core. Were hooped if they can't figure their #### out.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

- Another interesting thing to look at is how many more penalties are we taking this year? It feels like a lot more, which would likely be a black mark on the team defence, which could potentially be bleeding into worse goaltending results if they are getting warn out cause we are on the PK too much.

- Also looks as though we are generating more chances, but scoring less. The dreaded normalization of shooting % at play?

Definitely taking more penalties and giving up more on the pk. Thats not helping

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

It's also a routine defensive play, but instead he is allowed to walk right through to take that shot from 8 or 9 feet from the net.

He's not allowed to 'walk right through', he is pushed to the outside, where he can't take a dangerous shot. Against any reasonable goalie, that shot just leads to a faceoff.

The defense can't prevent every shot, if they could, teams wouldn't even play goalies. The goalie has to make that save 99/100 or more, if they want to be an NHL goalie. If this was the first time a goal like that had gone in in a week or two, fine, no problem. But there is a goal like that every game. And usually it's the first goal of the game, or the game winner.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

A world class goalie at the other end did the exact same thing....
Look at the other 3 and he has little to no chance unless the players in front of him cover for him much better than they were (goes back to my previous post about great d and a poor goalie or a great goalie and poor d can often offset each other.

This isn't true at all. The Jagr shot was very stoppable. Jagr didn't have much to shoot at and didn't get much on it. It slid along the ice and went in. NHL goalies should almost never allow a goal along the ice.

Ramo also has terrible positioning on the third goal. Watch him way over compensate towards the shooter. He completely gives up on any play that involves the puck going across the ice. A good goalie would be further back in the net, and able to move across the ice to still make the save, or at least be able to make an attempt at a save.

The second goal isn't great either. Again, he is too far out, so any pass or deflection that moves the puck to the other side of the net and he has no chance. I don't think he's tracking the puck well at all. It looks like he sees a shot from the point and just kind of flops and hopes it hits him. When it hits the traffic in front, he's not even close to being able to make the save.

None of these would be that bad in isolation, but every game it's 4 goals or more against. Every shot from the point, or from the outside, can't be a scoring chance, but it sure feels like it.

Johnny has had a great game that led to a win, so have Gio and Brodie. Real NHL goalies also have great games, where they are the first star, and the team gets a win.

Look at the graphic above in this thread. The Flames give up almost exactly the same shots from the same areas as the Rangers. The Rangers have the best GAA and the Flames the worst.

[SeanCharles]

I think goaltending has been a problem this year and is the biggest reason for our failures so far..

I also think having Brodie starting the year injured, Gio's difficulties in returning to form, Hamilton needing time to find his way in a new system, and Russsel and Wideman losing that magic as a pairing all seem to have added up to make the defence really struggle.

These defensive struggles, combined with the goaltending deficiencies, resulted in some blowouts. But then Brodie came back, Hamilton got the ability to sort out the kinks lower on the depth chart and Russell and Wideman being separated has helped us win a few.

However, the continued struggles of goaltending and, I hate to say it, Gio hasn't been helping us put a significant streak together.

Gio is here to stay, which is not a problem in my books, but he clearly needs more time to find his way after that injury.

The goaltending, however, is more wide open. Hiller and Ramo are not part of the future and they continue to let in frustrating goals that everyone is taking notice of including fans, players and everyone else in the hockey community.

We need to fix things in net cause the other early season deficiencies are starting to iron themselves out.

[Flamescuprun2018]

Excellent discussion. war-on-ice.com is impressive.

Based on advanced stats (war-on-ice.com) goaltending and odd man differential/special teams/discipline are the major reasons for our poor start.

Defense and Offense middle of the road.

1. Goaltending: 30th OSv%
2. Penalties/Odd-man: 26th PP +5 28th SH -12
3. Defense : 19th Corsi% 22nd Shot Diff 15th HSCA 13th SCA
3. Offense: 19th Corsi% 22nd Shot Diff 18th OSh% 22nd HSCF 14th SCF

[Flamescuprun2018]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Just by my eyes and no hard data to back it up:

Defense has been average to below average. In the course of a game, mostly good, a few poor plays that really cost the team.

Goaltending has been all-world terrible. The year of Joey MacDonald and Reto Berra was legitimately better than this year.

This team is at least .500 with an adequate NHL starting goaltender.

Reto Berra currently sixth in the league although only 6 games played.
Maybe Avs saw something...
Save percentage in the three zones (L, M, H): 98.53 97.50 96.30

[Machiavelli]

Watching the Habs today...they've definitely suffered some defensive breakdowns. However, Condon has made multiple point-blank saves on guys like Kessel and Malkin. This is what the Flames have been missing all season - the big save.

[Erick Estrada]

I know someone will bring up the young guns teams but those were teams with very little talent around them. This is bar none the worst goaltending we have seen in the first two months of any Calgary Flames team. It's been so bad that Ramo just letting in just one soft goal against the Penguins is considered a really solid night from the net minder. This is why I don't believe this team has a chance at making the playoffs as I don't believe even the best roster in the NHL could overcome this shoddy goaltending. Ramo and Hiller should be ashamed of themselves collecting millions in pay for amateur hour performance.

[meeko39]

How about making goalies use same size equipment as thirty years ago & not dress up like lacross goalies.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Watching the Habs today...they've definitely suffered some defensive breakdowns. However, Condon has made multiple point-blank saves on guys like Kessel and Malkin. This is what the Flames have been missing all season - the big save.

Comparing the Habs defence to ours is to laugh. Ramo made some big saves when we were down 3-1 to the Panthers but that didn't help our cause any.

Both Ramo and Hiller had solid seasons last year due in part to the solid defence they had in front of them. This year we've hung all our tenders out to dry with our endless defensive brealdowns and i'm not surprised they've all had an awful season so far.

[Caged Great]

With that goal that Jagr scored last night, I now believe that I could be an NHL goalie. What was that.

Jagr Goal

[Erick Estrada]

I'm sure a few long time posters would remember that I used to be pretty hard on Kipper for letting in a soft goal every so often but holy smokes I have never, ever, seen a group of goaltenders that let in softies every single game and to make things worse it's usually multiple soft goals a game on average. Terrible is too kind of a term to describe these guys.

The Flames could play 90's Jacques Lemaire New Jersey Devils trap system allowing only 20 shots a game and the Flames would still be at the bottom of the league for goals against. We knew these guys weren't top goaltenders in the league but who could predict they would be this bad? The only shining light is that neither of these guys (possibly Ortio as well) will be back next year but it sucks that they will waste a year of Flames hockey on their way to playing themselves out of the NHL.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Dion

Comparing the Habs defence to ours is to laugh. Ramo made some big saves when we were down 3-1 to the Panthers but that didn't help our cause any.

Both Ramo and Hiller had solid seasons last year due in part to the solid defence they had in front of them. This year we've hung all our tenders out to dry with our endless defensive brealdowns and i'm not surprised they've all had an awful season so far.

The conclusion from the scoring chance data in OP is that the Flames D are doing a better job than last season at limiting dangerous chances, but the puck is in the net almost twice as much.

How anyone can try to point to the D more than the goaltending as the issue, after seeing that data, is beyond me.

[Dion]

nm

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by heep223

The conclusion from the scoring chance data in OP is that the Flames D are doing a better job than last season at limiting dangerous chances, but the puck is in the net almost twice as much.

How anyone can try to point to the D more than the goaltending as the issue, after seeing that data, is beyond me.

I would supplement charts and advanced stats with what i actually see in a live game. To strictly base your judgement 100% off of a chart is a little judge book by the cover. We must be watching different hockey games because i see poor goaltending and defensive breakdowns and poor coverage when i watch most of the games.

Edit: And its probably more goaltending then defense but we are supposed to be a top 5 defensive team and a middlebof the pack goaltending team so thats to be expected they are both underperforming.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

I would supplement charts and advanced stats with what i actually see in a live game. To strictly base your judgement 100% off of a chart is a little judge book by the cover. We must be watching different hockey games because i see poor goaltending and defensive breakdowns and poor coverage when i watch most of the games.

Correct and I agree.

Eye test: Ramo is horrible
Goalie stats: Ramo is horrible
Advanced stats: Ramo is horrible

I agree that the D coverage has been weak. But everyone keeps saying that compared to last year the D are hanging the goalies out to dry, which is simply not the case when you look at the data.

[expatflame]

I miss Kipper.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

This isn't true at all. The Jagr shot was very stoppable. Jagr didn't have much to shoot at and didn't get much on it. It slid along the ice and went in. NHL goalies should almost never allow a goal along the ice.

Ramo also has terrible positioning on the third goal. Watch him way over compensate towards the shooter. He completely gives up on any play that involves the puck going across the ice. A good goalie would be further back in the net, and able to move across the ice to still make the save, or at least be able to make an attempt at a save.

The second goal isn't great either. Again, he is too far out, so any pass or deflection that moves the puck to the other side of the net and he has no chance. I don't think he's tracking the puck well at all. It looks like he sees a shot from the point and just kind of flops and hopes it hits him. When it hits the traffic in front, he's not even close to being able to make the save.

None of these would be that bad in isolation, but every game it's 4 goals or more against. Every shot from the point, or from the outside, can't be a scoring chance, but it sure feels like it.

Johnny has had a great game that led to a win, so have Gio and Brodie. Real NHL goalies also have great games, where they are the first star, and the team gets a win.

Look at the graphic above in this thread. The Flames give up almost exactly the same shots from the same areas as the Rangers. The Rangers have the best GAA and the Flames the worst.

Everyone loves to break down the goals and say he should have saved this or that but lets look at some key saves to keep a struggling team in it

- 3 minutes in he has 3 panthers whacking at the puck in the crease on the PP and he keeps it out
- 13 minute mark of the first a clear 2 on 1 great save
- 5 minutes into the 2nd, a great 3 on 1 save
- 50 seconds into the 3rd period he stops a breakaway and 3 consecutive whacks at it


My point is, he is not a #1 goalie and the organization needs to do something to bring in a #1 goalie. Ramo has played like garbage this year however I feel he has given the team a chance to win in his last 3 starts which is all you can ask for from what is essentially a backup quality goalie.

And agree to disagree on the assessment of goals... no 2 people are going to see it alike.

- The whiffed shot was one of the tougher saves all game and Kelly Hrudey has spoke about this
- The PP cross crease tap in had nobody back door so Ramo is supposed to challenge a shooter. It is up to Brodie and Hudler to make sure that if a back door option becomes present, they are tied up. If a back door option was present from the start you would not have seen Ramo challenge that much.
- The poor glove hand goal started with very poor defensive play but is a shot you expect your goalie to save.