[PGT] Flames lose 4-3. Questionable Team Defense

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by New Era

There are a bunch of Flames fans that have become just as delusional as Oilers fans have been over the past two or three seasons. All the problems lay at the feet of the goaltenders. It's the goaltenders fault. All we need is another goaltender. We just need to trade for a goaltender and all our troubles go away!

News flash! When all of your goaltenders produce similar results, and post similar numbers, the problem isn't the goaltending. There are much bigger fish to fry here and it ain't the goaltending that is the root cause of the Flames problems. The Flames need the defense rebuilt, the forwards cleaned out of useless vets, and the systems changed from the predictable stretch pass game that is no longer working. Maybe when those things happen we'll see whether we have a real goaltending issue, because as it is, we are no different from that team up the road who doesn't play a solid team game.

Youre just as delusional thinking the goaltending isn't a part of the problem. Or thinking it is less of a problem than team defense. It's all a clown show in their own zone right now. And Karri Ramo is ring leader.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Agree with this, but I think a big focus of the "rebuild" years is to establish and fortify an identity and playing style. That looked to be trending in the right direction at the latter end of 2013-14 and through 14-15. But right now, those gains seem in jeopardy.

I'm fine with losses, but the way this team is losing games is worrisome.

While rebuilds aren't generally linear, they're fragile. I'm fine with no playoffs, but regression in future core players is troublesome.

Giordano isn't going to be better than now (in the longer view, not right now), but Brodie, Monahan and Hamilton are certainly showing worrying signs

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Youre just as delusional thinking the goaltending isn't a part of the problem. Or thinking it is less of a problem than team defense. It's all a clown show in their own zone right now. And Karri Ramo is ring leader.

What he said.

There are many a soft goal let in that should be saved. If those saves are made, and of course this is opinion, but I think the team will play more confident, and therefore better.


I think a lot of the problems can be solved with solid tending.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Giordano isn't going to be better than now (in the longer view, not right now), but Brodie, Monahan and Hamilton are certainly showing worrying signs

There is nothing worrisome about young players struggling in stretches.

Personally I think Brodie has been great since he returned, giveaways like last night happen. Hamilton has been much better recently, and Monahan is struggling but development isn't going to be always going upwards, sometimes there will be dips. Monahan struggled offensively earlyish last season too.

The Flames are effectively having the season this year we were supposed to have last year, but the younger guys, especially those twenty two and younger aren't the concern. And if anyone get worried about young guys not always playing great they need to understand how people develop.

There are bumps.

[Phanuthier]

Any Flames fan who was around before Kiprusoff came along should know, goaltending is not the problem until its a problem; and when its a problem, its your biggest problem.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Youre just as delusional thinking the goaltending isn't a part of the problem. Or thinking it is less of a problem than team defense. It's all a clown show in their own zone right now. And Karri Ramo is ring leader.

All three of our goaltenders did not come to camp this year and forget how to play goal. Something else has changed that has made them ALL suck. That screams system. You could put Carey ####ing Price in net for the Flames right now and he's still going to get shellacked. You give any forward in the NHL time and space in the slot and they are going to make your goaltender look bad. The opposition spends way too much time unmolested in the high percentage scoring zones. No one is afraid to go to the slot and our goaltenders pay for it. Our forwards don't help out by covering their men, and our goaltenders pay for it. Our defense men continually cough up the puck in front of our net, and our goaltenders pay for it.

Having said that, we don't have a true starting goaltender. We have three guys that could be decent backups, but they are not starters. Then again, how many true starters are there in the NHL? And how many of those starters play behind teams that have a decent defense or systems that focus on limiting quality scoring opportunities? Because there is the difference between this and last year's team. Last year we made sure we limited good scoring opportunities. This year we are making up for it by giving away free golden scoring opportunities, and in droves. That's the biggest problem we have but nothing is being done to fix it.

[dammage79]

All the more reason for Treliving to get to work and shake up the net. The D core is set. The moving pieces need to be moved. Kids need a shot.

The only reason to sit on things right now is a lottery pick. Then, well we're staring at a long frustrating season of less than mediocre goaltending.

I'd say 25 teams have legit #1 goalies on their team. 4 or 5 teams have more than one #1 goalie sitting on their roster they keep for strength in depth.

Those teams would be: Dallas, Anaheim, Tampa Bay, Winnipeg, Detroit.

TB isn't moving theirs anytime soon. Im sure they'll run the whole of Bishops contract before handing things over to Vasilevsky.

I think you can get Lehtonen out of Dallas. Could try to get Howard out of DET. Anaheim I think rolls with who they have until one owns the net. And WPG, Hellybuck is a year away, Hutchinson looks great and Pav is having a ressurgence. They don't trade with the Flames IMO.

Philly is wishy washy. I think Mason is a legit #1 but not by much. Not sure he would fare well here. Neuvirth looks like he's worth a shot at running things.

[Flash Walken]

It's Black and White to me, the Captain isn't pulling his weight out there.

It might be the pressure, it might be returning from injury, it might be age; whatever it is, the results on the ice speak for themselves.

Why is Wideman getting icetime? Because as bad as he has been, he's been better than Hamilton, Giordano, Russell and in last night's game, Brodie.

Things are truly ugly when Dennis Wideman is your best defender.

[Nobama]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

I am not trying to defend the goaltending because it hasnt been good. But at the same time do you think it is coincidence that the last two games (Philly and Pens) were our best defensive performances and the goaltending was well above .900.

Defensive play goes a long way in padding and tanking the goaltenders stats. Ramo is probably a .900 goalie on an average team and should be a .910 goalie on this team when they are playing well. Hes average backup quality and when the D are playing like they should it should be enough to win.

Edit: that being said he hasnt done himself a lot of favours this year but the defensive play hasnt helped much.

I think people get confused on what "save percentage" actually is. It has very little to do with team or defense playing well or playing terrible. It has EVERYTHING to do with the percentage the goalie will make a stop or let a goal in on every shot on net. For instance for every 5 shots on Ramo the save percentage tells us that he will most likely let one past him. The better goalies are 10+ shots before a goal. At this rate unless the defense only lets 10 shots on Ramo per game we are hooped. Maybe Johnny can score a hat trick every game?

[heep223]

Originally Posted by New Era

All three of our goaltenders did not come to camp this year and forget how to play goal.

All 23 skaters did not come to camp this year and forget how to play hockey.

Goaltending has been a huge issue and team defense has been a huge issue.

[Torchdemall]

Originally Posted by Nobama

I think people get confused on what "save percentage" actually is. It has very little to do with team or defense playing well or playing terrible. It has EVERYTHING to do with the percentage the goalie will make a stop or let a goal in on every shot on net. For instance for every 5 shots on Ramo the save percentage tells us that he will most likely let one past him. The better goalies are 10+ shots before a goal. At this rate unless the defense only lets 10 shots on Ramo per game we are hooped. Maybe Johnny can score a hat trick every game?

The only one confused here is you... in thinking that all shot opportunities are equal.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by heep223

All 23 skaters did not come to camp this year and forget how to play hockey.

Based on results and the performances to date, something major has obviously changed, or it appears those 23 players are having memory issues.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Nobama

I think people get confused on what "save percentage" actually is. It has very little to do with team or defense playing well or playing terrible. It has EVERYTHING to do with the percentage the goalie will make a stop or let a goal in on every shot on net. For instance for every 5 shots on Ramo the save percentage tells us that he will most likely let one past him. The better goalies are 10+ shots before a goal. At this rate unless the defense only lets 10 shots on Ramo per game we are hooped. Maybe Johnny can score a hat trick every game?

You are incorrect in what save percentage is. It is 100% backward looking, and a guess at forward looking.

[GioforPM]

I will just say that the team defence is poor - too many clear shots from the slot, too many passes getting across the ice.

But the goalies need to stop the high slot shots. They need to make all the routine saves and also save most of the gold-plated chances given to the opposition

[calgary2220]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

While rebuilds aren't generally linear, they're fragile. I'm fine with no playoffs, but regression in future core players is troublesome.

Giordano isn't going to be better than now (in the longer view, not right now), but Brodie, Monahan and Hamilton are certainly showing worrying signs

Gee Brodie has one bad game and you Clowns on CP throw him under the bus multiple time. He's been the best player on the ice most night, one bad game isn't any reason to break out the firing squad. As for some of the other defenders, the reaping is just. I agree with some tho, that Gio better pull up his socks abit, or as stated that contract that hasn't even kicked in yet looks very scary! I can feel a bit of the teams desperation as well, my son played on a team with an extremely bad goalie, lots of those game where lost before the kids even stepped on the ice. Then once that weak goal went in, it was all over.

[GranteedEV]

As much as the Flames visually seem to look like a tire fire, the actual shot rates say that's not the case.

Flames shot rates (ES):



Rangers shot rates (ES):



It really is goaltending. One team has the best save percentage in the league, the other team the worst.

[CroFlames]

Took a quick look at worst save percentage in the NHL

3 of our keepers are in the bottom 7. Hiller absolute worst in the NHL at 861. League average is 916. Wowzers

[Nobama]

Originally Posted by Torchdemall

The only one confused here is you... in thinking that all shot opportunities are equal.

Not equal but on average extremely close team to team

[Nobama]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

You are incorrect in what save percentage is. It is 100% backward looking, and a guess at forward looking.

True but unless you can see into the future its the best way to project outcomes.

If we continue with goaltending in the mid 800's we will not make the playoffs.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

While rebuilds aren't generally linear, they're fragile. I'm fine with no playoffs, but regression in future core players is troublesome.

Giordano isn't going to be better than now (in the longer view, not right now), but Brodie, Monahan and Hamilton are certainly showing worrying signs

Brodie showing worrisome signs? Are we watching the same player? Brodie looks great night in and night out by far the best player on the ice for both teams.

Last night Gio brought him down and that goal a few people are saying he gave the puck away was actually a missed call from the refs.

Brodie has been fine. Hamilton though continues to underwhelm no matter how much Hartley shelters him. And he's been sheltered a lot.

Monahan is showing flashes and has struggled but a lot of young centers do. He will be fine.