[News] CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Benched

Honestly, still not sold at all on this project.


Nenshi may have been a bit politically incorrect in his statement, but thus far I'm far more in his camp than I am with the 'all in one shoehorned deluxe special that you all pay for and we get the cash from!'


As long as it's not all 'we are doing our due-diligence, don't get mad at us when we sign this thing!' from the city council (ie. smoke and mirrors) and that they actually do hammer down details and costs before making a decision, and that's it's equitable for both the private company's interests and public interests. I'd like to see business take on the costs/risks, and profits, more than I would the public.

That is far from the case and you know it.

As for the topic at hand, Nenshi could have, and should have, used better language. Whether or not you believe something is "half-baked", that is not the way to positively engender yourself to people willing to put up almost half a billion of their own money ($200 in cash and $250 in diverted revenue from the ticket tax).

[BACKCHECK!!!]

But seriously, what the **** were the Flames doing all those years they were supposedly working on this project?

I think we all assumed that they were working hand-in-glove with the city, keeping it under wraps and refining the project so that it would be an airtight plan that worked for all parties by the time it saw the light of day.

Instead, after years of behind the scenes work, we see a vague general concept for an arena attached to a football stadium, and a city hall that clearly had no more notion of what was going on than the general public did, and didn't even get the outline of the project until it was announced to the season ticket holders.

For an organization that wants to get into a billion dollar private-public partnership with the city, they sure seem to have half-***ed it pretty hard so far.

I don't even have any huge insurmountable objections to the project that has been laid out so far, but I agree with Nenshi that calling this 'half baked' would be overly generous.

To carry on the metaphor of baking a cake, this project is at the stage of somebody saying "Hey, let's make it a BIG cake!"

[Benched]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

That is far from the case and you know it.

If you say so...

[monkeyman]

If anything I think Nenshi was aiming his remarks toward city council. Noting the timing of the original announcement(Nenshi out of town) and Deputy mayor Colley-Urquhart's immediate media blitz supporting the project, I'm guessing there are some that are willing to green light this thing regardless of how half baked it is.
I'm not a big Nenshi fan but he'd be privy to everything presented to city council regarding this project. If he's saying it isn't even half baked, you have to believe the Flames really haven't presented much more than what they showed us.
Again, what was King working on all these years when this is the best proposal he can present the stakeholders(public taxpayers)?
Just goes to show the arrogant nature of that organization.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Poster

I own a trucking company ... if the city would provide the land, tax free status and the cash to build a modern state of the art terminal, I could probably provide 300 new direct jobs along with dozens of spin off jobs in the surrounding area.

should I call a press conference?

this is a private venture, the Flames can build it with their own money if they choose to.

Your analogy completely ignores the fact that there's at least some element of public consumption of the products that come along with the arena, and that it contributes at least in some way to the well-being and vitality of the city.

Your trucking company is just a trucking company that benefits you.

[Poster]

Originally Posted by heep223

Your analogy completely ignores the fact that there's at least some element of public consumption of the products that come along with the arena, and that it contributes at least in some way to the well-being and vitality of the city.

Your trucking company is just a trucking company that benefits you.

fair enough but this is a commercial enterprise and the city should not be funding any portion of it. but what if in my plans I included a nice park, lake and other recreational amenities for the public to enjoy?

i love how KK spins "the citizens should rightfully own this building" ... ya of course, why would he want to own a depreciating asset that he cant walk away from in 30 years when its obsolete!

[Lil Pedro]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

But seriously, what the **** were the Flames doing all those years they were supposedly working on this project?

I think we all assumed that they were working hand-in-glove with the city, keeping it under wraps and refining the project so that it would be an airtight plan that worked for all parties by the time it saw the light of day.

Instead, after years of behind the scenes work, we see a vague general concept for an arena attached to a football stadium, and a city hall that clearly had no more notion of what was going on than the general public did, and didn't even get the outline of the project until it was announced to the season ticket holders.

For an organization that wants to get into a billion dollar private-public partnership with the city, they sure seem to have half-***ed it pretty hard so far.

I don't even have any huge insurmountable objections to the project that has been laid out so far, but I agree with Nenshi that calling this 'half baked' would be overly generous.

To carry on the metaphor of baking a cake, this project is at the stage of somebody saying "Hey, let's make it a BIG cake!"

I was thinking the same thing! I'm not sure why they didn't announce 5-6 years ago that the West Village was their targeted area; would have gotten this process moving a lot of faster

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

That is far from the case and you know it.

As for the topic at hand, Nenshi could have, and should have, used better language. Whether or not you believe something is "half-baked", that is not the way to positively engender yourself to people willing to put up almost half a billion of their own money ($200 in cash and $250 in diverted revenue from the ticket tax).

LOL!

Why does Nenshi have to engender himself at all to the Flames? Nenshi isn't the one looking for a handout to build himself a stadium.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Poster

fair enough but this is a commercial enterprise and the city should not be funding any portion of it. but what if in my plans I included a nice park, lake and other recreational amenities for the public to enjoy?

Put forward a proposal. If the public benefit outweighs the public cost, why wouldn't the city support it?

It's not like no private business has ever received public funding as an incentive to move its business and/or expand into a new city. Didn't the city of Edmonton spend millions to convince Dell to open a call centre there, which they closed less than 5 years later?

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

LOL!

Why does Nenshi have to engender himself at all to the Flames? Nenshi isn't the one looking for a handout to build himself a stadium.

The only reason the Flames would be offended by that is because it is indeed half baked. Sometimes the truth hurts.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

The only reason the Flames would be offended by that is because it is indeed half baked. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Sorry, you are saying the only reason to be offended by an insulting comment is if it is true? That does not make sense to me.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

Sorry, you are saying the only reason to be offended by an insulting comment is if it is true? That does not make sense to me.

I'm saying there's no reason to be offended if it wasn't true.

[troutman]

All of Canada will be half-baked soon.

Thanks Justin.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

But seriously, what the **** were the Flames doing all those years they were supposedly working on this project?

I think we all assumed that they were working hand-in-glove with the city, keeping it under wraps and refining the project so that it would be an airtight plan that worked for all parties by the time it saw the light of day.

Instead, after years of behind the scenes work, we see a vague general concept for an arena attached to a football stadium, and a city hall that clearly had no more notion of what was going on than the general public did, and didn't even get the outline of the project until it was announced to the season ticket holders.

For an organization that wants to get into a billion dollar private-public partnership with the city, they sure seem to have half-***ed it pretty hard so far.

I don't even have any huge insurmountable objections to the project that has been laid out so far, but I agree with Nenshi that calling this 'half baked' would be overly generous.

To carry on the metaphor of baking a cake, this project is at the stage of somebody saying "Hey, let's make it a BIG cake!"

I'm not saying I 100% agree with how the release of this project was handled, but it is clear you have no idea the type of back work that goes into creating a concept like this, especially of this magnitude. There were many, many players involved and multiple programming, planning and design schemes, legal ramifications, negotiations, contact talks, etc. before being released.

The South Health Campus, the $1.3B project, was in the planning stages for 10 years before the RFP came out in 2005, and subsequently completed by 2013. That's an 18-year span.

I understand people's expectations and anxiety on the CalgaryNEXT project to get going, but if you knew how the development / engineering / design / construction industry really operate, you wouldn't be surprised at the timelines. Not for a project like this.

[The Ditch]

Reggie Bush is going to be suing the city of St Louis for the concrete he slipped on and busted up his knee, and he might actually have a case.

Just another reason why a city shouldn't own a sports arena

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Muta

I'm not saying I 100% agree with how the release of this project was handled, but it is clear you have no idea the type of back work that goes into creating a concept like this, especially of this magnitude. There were many, many players involved and multiple design programming, planning and schemes, legal ramifications, negotiations, contact talks, etc. before being released.

The South Health Campus, the $1.3B project, was in the planning stages for 10 years before the RFP came out in 2005, and subsequently completed by 2013. That's an 18-year span.

I understand people's expectations and anxiety on the CalgaryNEXT project to get going, but if you knew how the development / engineering / design / construction industry really operate, you wouldn't be surprised at the timelines. Not for a project like this.

The mayor obviously disagrees with you.

I do not.

But I also wonder KK can say the arena+stadium will cost $890MM, yet he has no clear image or renderings of how the arena and stadium will look. How can you know how much they will cost if you don't even have a design for them yet?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Lil Pedro

I was thinking the same thing! I'm not sure why they didn't announce 5-6 years ago that the West Village was their targeted area; would have gotten this process moving a lot of faster

Likely because they are targeting an end date that would be 5 or 6 years to early if they started this 5 or 6 years ago.

So many people are assuming (for who knows what reason, maybe just their own desire to have a new rink) that the Flames are "way behind" some schedule they are suppose to be managing tooo. I'd wager the Flames are not at all surprised by upcoming length of this process ahead, are likely well aware of the back and forth that's upcoming, are treating it like a negotiation and likely introduced it when they were ready. They likely know when they'd like to make this investment, and likely know when they think the best timing is to start having discussions with the city if they are looking for funding. Can you imagine how the discussions with the city would go had they tabled their initial thoughts 5 years ago? The Dome would be 5 years younger, it would be even harder to build a case that the team and the city needs a new rink.

I do however agree, that the Plan A, that incorporates a larger project than just a rink, and the play for a new CFL home, is something that might not have been on the radar right from the start, and may have delayed things. But what I find really frustrating is all this talk and this crazy jump to conclusion that somehow they didn't think this through, or aren't interlocked enough or don't know what they are doing, all based around nothing but a bunch of fans thoughts that they'd like to know everything now and want the new rink yesterday.

[monkeyman]

Wasn't it King himself that declared a ribbon cutting could be had as soon as 2020?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Dentoman

For a guy with all these credentials, he sure says some stupid stuff. He may be a good mayor, but he has a problem with knowing when to shut up. Just say he was hoping that the project would have come to his desk with more work put into it, instead of looking for a sound bite, He comes across as loving to hear his own voice too much. Just say what needs to be said, leave the playground remarks out of it.

You'd probably be just as annoyed if he never said anything, or only ever spoke in vagaries. Just like when people complain that professional athletes never have anything to say...except they love to torch the few that do have personalities and speak freely (inevitably saying something stupid or not phrasing something perfectly).

I much prefer people who speak their mind and let you know where they stand, even if it means offending delicate sensibilities now and then.

Originally Posted by Scary Eloranta

Nenshi has been against ANY new arena from day 1. I remember him saying: "what's wrong with the Saddledome?" However, he does seem excited about a new library and new LRT line going through industrial areas.

The shortcomings of the Saddledome are less significant and affect fewer people than public transit (or library for that matter). If the city doesn't build them, nobody will. The market can help determine viability of private ventures.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

Wasn't it King himself that declared a ribbon cutting could be had as soon as 2020?

He said that "at a sprint" they could break ground on a three-year construction project in two years (from August). No one thought this was going to just be the city rolling over and writing a cheque.