2015-2016 Blue Jays Off-Season Thread

[lifetime_flamesfan]

Are there any numbers to how much money Rogers made during the run up to the playoff and during the playoffs? Is there even a way to figure that out?

That would be interesting to see, especially as this off season moves along and how the Jays go about it.

[kmart]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I don't think fans issue is necessarily losing AA or Gibbons, but the fact that Shapiro is fully running the show. His track record strongly indicates the Jays payroll is going to be in the bottom 5 teams in the league after being in the top 10 for the past few years. He better be a wizard at finding prospects and cheap talent, otherwise this likely ends horribly.

The payroll is set by the owners, not GM or President. It's likely he will be using the same payroll that AA had, which is set by Rogers.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I don't think fans issue is necessarily losing AA or Gibbons, but the fact that Shapiro is fully running the show. His track record strongly indicates the Jays payroll is going to be in the bottom 5 teams in the league after being in the top 10 for the past few years. He better be a wizard at finding prospects and cheap talent, otherwise this likely ends horribly.

Would the payroll size ever have been his decision though? Wouldn't he have been given payroll parameters and then made to work within them?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by normtwofinger

I wonder how Shapiro ripped AA.

"Well Alex, in spite of building a playoff World Series contending team, ending this franchise's 22 year playoff drought, filling the empty ballpark again, bringing the whole city, province and country together, adopting a whole new generation of fans and bringing x amount of money from sellout attendance, TV revenue, etc, we are soooo disappointed you traded some prospects away. GTFO."

Yep, they had a clear plan in place mid summer, Rogers did not think these moves would turn into an ALDS championship and are choosing to move forward like none of this success actually happened.

This whole thing is very Rogers. Rogers is like the Stephan Harper of companies. Everything they do really annoys you, and they start to deconstruct and make embarrassing changes to the team/network/country you love, and do so against the opinion of the people.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

Would the payroll size ever have been his decision though? Wouldn't he have been given payroll parameters and then made to work within them?

I guess my point is he's someone who has experience trying to put together teams on limited budgets. So the thinking is the Jays want to reduce payroll while trying to stay competitive (which of course never works unless it's Billy Beane), and that Shapiro is the man who can do that. Speaks to why he wanted control over AA, so that if AA tried any moves of prospects for players (i.e. adding payroll), he could override him.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I don't think fans issue is necessarily losing AA or Gibbons, but the fact that Shapiro is fully running the show. His track record strongly indicates the Jays payroll is going to be in the bottom 5 teams in the league after being in the top 10 for the past few years. He better be a wizard at finding prospects and cheap talent, otherwise this likely ends horribly.

What does that have to do with Shapiro? Do you think he opted to have a small payroll in Cleveland out of choice? Payroll numbers are set by ownership - it's up to the GM to try and squeeze as much as they can out of them, but that's minimal movement. I wouldn't be worried about Rogers cutting payroll and if they do Shapiro is not to blame.

It'd be sorely disappointing if they didn't increase the payroll given the fan response this season though. It seems like such a poor business decision in the end - make a small investment ($20m extra per season) and, if the team has a similar year, Rogers stands to make multiples of that more in return. Given the roster they have in place it's easily worth the risk.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Well I guess I should have made clear I don't blame Shapiro, just that him now having basically total control should be an ominous sign. I obviously fully blame Rogers if this goes south and they cheap out, but we all know their nickel and diming ways so I think we're all thinking it's going that way. It's on them to prove us wrong I suppose.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JayP

What does that have to do with Shapiro? Do you think he opted to have a small payroll in Cleveland out of choice? Payroll numbers are set by ownership - it's up to the GM to try and squeeze as much as they can out of them, but that's minimal movement. I wouldn't be worried about Rogers cutting payroll and if they do Shapiro is not to blame.

It'd be sorely disappointing if they didn't increase the payroll given the fan response this season though. It seems like such a poor business decision in the end - make a small investment ($20m extra per season) and, if the team has a similar year, Rogers stands to make multiples of that more in return. Given the roster they have in place it's easily worth the risk.

I think you are missing the point. No one is saying anything about Shapiro, people are saying bringing in a guy whose experience is directly related to penny pinching and small budgets, would suggest that is the way Rogers is moving. Their past actions only further cement this.

[Pagal4321]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/blue_j...s-griffin.html

Well then...

[Jiggy_12]

Wow...this one leaves a really bad taste.

AA completely took the high road in his interview today and refused to get in to specifics or throw anyone under the bus. Very classy, but I'm really intruiged to hear the real full story as to what happened. I'm sure it'll come out at some point or another.

This is too bad. I'll wait to cast total judgement until this offseason is over and we see the scope of the team. At this moment, this is pretty shocking news and really deflating news after such a positive Jays vibe we've felt for the past 3 months.

Congrats to AA on winning executive of the year, it's well deserved.

Also of note - Pillar, Buerhle and Martin all nominated for AL gold glove awards.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Ne7en

Lucky? I couldn't disagree more. AA went for it and added ELITE players, you don't need luck when you have immense talent.

It's not rocket science, you don't let the 'executive of the year' walk away. This is seer stupidity on the Jays/Rogers part.

I think a little luck is involved when a team goes something like 42-18 to finish the season. Mets were the same.

Wildcard for sure, division champs was reaching a bit.

[TheAlpineOracle]

The reigning baseball executive of the year just turned down a contract from his hometown team for non-monetary reasons. Let that sink in for a moment. If people didn't understand the hate long term Jays fans have for Rogers, they should now.

I don't think AA is the be all and end all (I found the way he handled the season after they clinched a playoff spot to be pure thrash), but that just shows how much respect Rogers has in the baseball world. No one,not even AA, thinks they can be successful with these clowns setting the rules and strategies. The first chance to get out of from their grasp, he took. What kind of a message does this send to meaningful free agents when the beloved leader doesn't even want to be there.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I think you are missing the point. No one is saying anything about Shapiro, people are saying bringing in a guy whose experience is directly related to penny pinching and small budgets, would suggest that is the way Rogers is moving. Their past actions only further cement this.

That doesn't suggest anything. Did the Dodgers poaching Andrew Friedman suggest they were cutting payroll? Or the Cubs with Theo Epstein? Big market clubs typically bring in guys from small market clubs all the time - that's how most guys work their way up the ladder in the MLB. To say this case is any different is just baseless speculation.

[REDVAN]

Originally Posted by Pagal4321

http://www.thestar.com/sports/blue_j...s-griffin.html

Well then...

Reading between the lines... Rogers should have made AA President then and hired a figurehead GM.

[Jason14h]

I think my biggest issue is the complaining about trading prospects.

Baseball is a game where every year a hundred new guys become top prospects and a hundred drop off.

While it really sucks to trade a prospects who turn into Noah Syndergaard, more often then not they turn into nothing.

The key is identifying the untouchables (Sanchez, Pompey, Osuna) and move the rest when you think you have a chance to win.

The Yankees use to do this all the time. Every year they would trade a new #1 prospect who you would never hear about again.

Sure in the long run if you do this every year you will eventually suck. But guess what, that the cyclical nature of sports.

The point of the sport is to win the World Series, not have an above average team forever. I sometimes think in today's analytical world GM's would rather win 90 games with an 80 million payroll then the World Series with a 120 million cause it makes them look smarter.

Will Shapiro do a good job? Maybe. But after the run we just had and the balls AA had to make the moves, to handcuff him on decision making seems completely sideways and a typical Toronto sports thing to do.

I can't imagine any other team messing this situation up as badly.

[GirlySports]

^I think this is correct. The modern GM doesn't want to build a powerhouse, he wants an above average team with many shots at the playoffs. You'd think if you make the playoffs 10 times, you'd win once. Whereas a powerhouse team may just have one or two shots and a bad bounces here, a crazy strike call there and it's all over.

The wildcard changed everything. Having 8 (and now 10) playoff teams instead of 4 makes everything a little bit more mediocre.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I think my biggest issue is the complaining about trading prospects.

Baseball is a game where every year a hundred new guys become top prospects and a hundred drop off.

While it really sucks to trade a prospects who turn into Noah Syndergaard, more often then not they turn into nothing.

The key is identifying the untouchables (Sanchez, Pompey, Osuna) and move the rest when you think you have a chance to win.

The Yankees use to do this all the time. Every year they would trade a new #1 prospect who you would never hear about again.

Sure in the long run if you do this every year you will eventually suck. But guess what, that the cyclical nature of sports.

The point of the sport is to win the World Series, not have an above average team forever. I sometimes think in today's analytical world GM's would rather win 90 games with an 80 million payroll then the World Series with a 120 million cause it makes them look smarter.

Will Shapiro do a good job? Maybe. But after the run we just had and the balls AA had to make the moves, to handcuff him on decision making seems completely sideways and a typical Toronto sports thing to do.

I can't imagine any other team messing this situation up as badly.

I don't know about that.

If you look at the top teams in MLB (San Francisco, St. Louis, Boston and now maybe KC) the big thing that they have done to ensure that they aren't 1 and done is that they continually are able to turn over their roster by bringing in home grown talent. If you are constantly trading away prospects or failing to develop them then you are at the mercy of paying (usually overpaying) for FA's to fill those holes.

The Yankees went from winning 4 title in 5/6 years to the inconsistent semi-threats because they originally developed Jeter, Petite, Rivera, Posada so that they big money was spent on adding to that. Now they have Brett Gardner and ???? so they have to spend money chasing CC, Texeiria, Pineda etc.

Now obviously saying just do it like San Fran, St. Louis and Boston is a lot easier said than done but I think you a very much undervaluing prospects and the turnover of top guys.

I would also say that it is much easier to sell all your prospects and going for it than building a team with patience and smarts. Look at this situation AA is getting tons of credit/love for making big moves even though they may result in 0 World Series and 0 World Series appearances.

[Weitz]

Man the guy on the fan 960 right now is preaching exactly what some in here are saying.

Flip Donaldson and Tulo if you get the chance.

[JiriHrdina]

I don't think AA is perfect but he got this team back to the playoffs. What bugs me about it is what caused this. Ego. Nothing more. Control and ego.
Nothing good ever happens when that is the fuel.
They had so much momentum built up and good will from a fun season - and a great deal of that has been erased instantly.
Why?
Because of one man's huge ego.
Dumb, stupid and dumb.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I don't think AA is perfect but he got this team back to the playoffs. What bugs me about it is what caused this. Ego. Nothing more. Control and ego.
Nothing good ever happens when that is the fuel.
They had so much momentum built up and good will from a fun season - and a great deal of that has been erased instantly.
Why?
Because of one man's huge ego.
Dumb, stupid and dumb.

Just to be clear, you mean Mark Shapiro's ego, not AA's, right?