My thoughts and granted I am not nearly as in touch with the Star Wars universe as somebody like the Captain.
Spoiler!
I think the backstory will be that Luke became the Dark Sith lord but did so unknowingly to himself.
ROTJ was always about the balance between Luke falling to the dark side, or becoming a full blown Jedi. But like the article below says even though the end of that movie made it look like Luke had redeemed himself and turned to the light, he actually may have turned to the dark side due to his actions and incomplete training.
What I think happened is after ROTJ Luke went and sought out an apprentice (Kylo Ren) to continue the legacy of the Jedi. What Luke didn't realize is that with the death of Vader and the Emperor, plus with the fact that he had unknowingly turned to the dark side, he actually became the new Sith Lord and he was training Kylo Ren to be his apprentice (Follows the Rule of Two).
Additionally since Luke was going out to hide any of the sith artifacts, it actually meant he was absorbing the Sith knowledge, further cementing his place as the Sith Lord.
When Kylo Ren then fully embraces the Dark Side, Luke realizes the errors of his ways and it's when he goes into hiding.
I also think that we have a scene where Han is fighting Kylo and ask's him who he is, and Kylo pulls off his mask and says "Han, I am your Son!".
Maybe it's the kid in me but I feel like Luke is pure Jedi in these next 3 movies. Falls in the 3rd one like Obi-Wan did in the first. Let's not forget, Luke has force ghosts Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin mentoring him now to complete the Jedi training he missed. Then imagine that the other heads of the Jedi order like Qui-gon and Mace get in on the act.
Then again, having 3 or more force ghosts babbling at you all day may make you go insane. Thus yearning to kill everything.
I would hope that by this time, Yoda, Anakin and Ben have realized that Luke has fulfilled their destinies for them and have faded off into the force.
Its too easy for him to be getting advice from him, I prefer the heartache of at some point, Luke desperately seeking help or advice and not getting it.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
My thoughts and granted I am not nearly as in touch with the Star Wars universe as somebody like the Captain.
Spoiler!
I think the backstory will be that Luke became the Dark Sith lord but did so unknowingly to himself.
ROTJ was always about the balance between Luke falling to the dark side, or becoming a full blown Jedi. But like the article below says even though the end of that movie made it look like Luke had redeemed himself and turned to the light, he actually may have turned to the dark side due to his actions and incomplete training.
What I think happened is after ROTJ Luke went and sought out an apprentice (Kylo Ren) to continue the legacy of the Jedi. What Luke didn't realize is that with the death of Vader and the Emperor, plus with the fact that he had unknowingly turned to the dark side, he actually became the new Sith Lord and he was training Kylo Ren to be his apprentice (Follows the Rule of Two).
Additionally since Luke was going out to hide any of the sith artifacts, it actually meant he was absorbing the Sith knowledge, further cementing his place as the Sith Lord.
When Kylo Ren then fully embraces the Dark Side, Luke realizes the errors of his ways and it's when he goes into hiding.
I also think that we have a scene where Han is fighting Kylo and ask's him who he is, and Kylo pulls off his mask and says "Han, I am your Son!".
I think its kinda cool. But here's my reasoning for my scenario
Spoiler!
The Sith Lineage
Two there are no more, one to embody power and one to crave it
The Sith Lineage goes back to the time of Darth Bane, he basically determined that a bunch of Sith running around was in a word stupid because it would create a atmosphere of distrust. He decided on the rule of two because while it would create rivalry between the Lord and his apprentice, a weaker apprentice wouldn't be able to team up with another weaker apprentice and betray his lord letting a weaker Sith Lord usurp a stronger one.
The idea was that the Apprentice when he was powerful enough and couldn't learn anymore from his Master would ascend by killing his master who would then be shown as unworthy of the role of a Master, and the new master would continue to add to the power that he learned, while teaching as much or as little of this knowledge to the apprentice.
The Apprentice on the other hand would be secretly trying to grow his power to take out his master.
In this scenario a apprentice like Sideous would be far stronger then a master like Bane just because he had the benefits of a thousand years of learning and training behind him.
Why is this important?
Because going around and reading books and studying artifacts wouldn't create the type of strife and rivalry that would make you crave ultimate power and control like trying to over throw your master.
Therefore when Vader and Palpatine died, most of that Sith knowledge that was taught and handed down from Master to Apprentice would go unlearned and the Sith would literally be reset to their weakest point, and if someone like Ren if he wanted to be a Sith Lord wouldn't have that edge that was created by the craving of the power that someone else had, and the striving to become powerful enough to over throw a master.
Ok, so why is this important in the current scenario.
With the Sith dead and the Bannite line extinct, Luke would be desperate to keep it that way. He saw the destruction to the galaxy that was created by the continual rivalry between the Sith and the Jedi. He saw that the Galaxy and the Force itself was balanced by the Sith being destroyed and the Jedi being destroyed.
We also saw that Luke could go Dark and control it, so Luke is possibly equal parts dark and light, he's a mix of Jedi and dark jedi.
So now that balance is restored and he's the vessel so to speak, the last thing he wants to see is another Jedi Order and another Sith Order rising to cause chaos in the galaxy.
so to achieve this he would want to limit or remove access to tools of learning and not allow the rise of the Jedi or the Sith.
so in DnD terms he's probably chaotic neutral.
So what if he does take on the role of the so called Villain, with a justification that he doesn't want power or to rule so to speak, but get every piece of force knowledge out there and limit the number of force users out there. He recruits Kylo because Luke knows that he can't live forever so he needs to train a guardian to take his place after his death.
Now because he's inherited it from his father he's got a certain dark resolve to do what it takes to prevent the rise of the Sith and Jedi or any force users, and so he's forced to do dark things.
He might like the Empire now because it represents brutal efficiency and the replacement of freedom, with order and justice.
So Luke sends his replacement or apprentice to get all dark and light side artifacts and knowledge and remove it from the equation no matter what the cost, and to do this he has to be ok with acts of goodness and darkness.
He's not evil or a sociopath like his dad, he's just driven and he's joined the other side.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
I hope they stay away from all the mythology, rule of two crap. The force was mysterious in the originals, an was only harmed by adding things like mydoclorians in. For the general film loving audience, I think it will harm the movies by having weird mythology thrown in. I know some people like to geek out about that stuff, but I never got into any expanded universe and love the originals for what they were, a great stand alone product. And they did that by keeping the force a fairly big unknown. The only explanations were general hand waving for the most part.
Fortunately from the trailers, it seams they are going with "mysterious" because of how Han had to answer that question of "is it true".
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Oh, while Luke may have struggled in the end, and obviously did some very non-jedi like stuff, I think he is still inherently "good" where Anakin never really was. I couldn't see Luke doing most of the things Anakin did. ROTJ showed that not everything is black and white, which was a powerful conclusion to the "balance" in its own right.
I hope they stay away from all the mythology, rule of two crap. The force was mysterious in the originals, an was only harmed by adding things like mydoclorians in. For the general film loving audience, I think it will harm the movies by having weird mythology thrown in. I know some people like to geek out about that stuff, but I never got into any expanded universe and love the originals for what they were, a great stand alone product. And they did that by keeping the force a fairly big unknown. The only explanations were general hand waving for the most part.
Fortunately from the trailers, it seams they are going with "mysterious" because of how Han had to answer that question of "is it true".
I have to disagree. Not necessarily that they shouldn't stay away from it, but the mythology is important. People hate the mydoclorians because it made it seem like the controlling the force wasn't something that could be learned, you just had it or you didn't. When it was established earlier that the force was in everything, and therefore, anything should be able to control it with enough focus and discipline. Introducing them actually threw a wrench into the established mythology.
The rule of two is important to understanding the motivations and powers of the Sith. It explains why they are feared by the Jedi, and why they are more powerful individually.
Straying the story away from that stuff would be okay, but it's important background to the overall universe. The world-building potential of Star Wars is one of the main reasons people love it and why it's such an enduring story. Whether it's following some bum x-wing pilot, or the most powerful force-user ever, the mythology is important to the overall story of the universe they created.
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I love the concept of the rule of 2 and think its hugely important in understanding the Sith, and why they rose to power the way they did and probably why they fell. It also did a great job of making the Jedi look like what they were when they fell, arrogant, cocky and blind.
Basically 2 guys (well really one) toppled a thousands of years old order with thousands of powerful force users, without even needing to use the force until the end. That's power.
the Jedi were every bit as corrupted as the Senate, you could argue that the Sith and especially Palpatine was pure.
The biggest difference between the two was outlook, but their end goals were pretty much the same, they both wanted the power to change the galaxy to their own ends. The Jedi wanted a galaxy at peace and filled with compassion. The Sith also wanted a galaxy at peace, however they felt that lesser beings (those without the ability to use the force) couldn't be trusted to run it, they were meant to serve the greater good, which was one powerful being making all the decisions in bringing about a galaxy built around the concepts of Peace, Order and Justice.
The Rule of 2 guaranteed that the person that eventually ruled would be powerful enough and ruthless enough to do it.
The whole revenge against the Jedi was to the Sith a bonus for the Jedi exiling them and then trying to commit genocide on them. But when Sidious sat on his throne the day after Order 66 went out, his first throught was now I rule the galaxy and I can shape it to my designs, his second thought was "In your face Jedi".
The Midi's was kind of a heavy handed way of answering the question of why can't everyone use the force. In the EU it was a basically a mutation in the brain at one point. It was pretty clumsy in that you needed microscopic parasites to hear the will of the force and be able to use it. But it was better then some of the early books of the EU, when Force Users were literally popping out of everywhere.
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Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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The Midi's was kind of a heavy handed way of answering the question of why can't everyone use the force. In the EU it was a basically a mutation in the brain at one point. It was pretty clumsy in that you needed microscopic parasites to hear the will of the force and be able to use it. But it was better then some of the early books of the EU, when Force Users were literally popping out of everywhere.
This is what bothers me. There was no reason to explain it beyond it takes extreme self-control to the point that only a very few can learn it. The reason kids are genetically pre-disposed is the same reason pro-athletes kids are predisposed to be athletes. You have those genetics. But that doesn't mean you need those genetics to become a pro-athlete. You don't need some foreign entity to give you force control. If the force is everywhere, everyone is always manipulating it with their energy, and therefore anyone should be able to focus enough to manipulate it to their will.
The conversation in this thread is turning to Star Trek level analysis
Star Trek doesn't have the mythology or fantasy/history element of Star Wars. It would be quite boring to have a Star Trek level analysis. The rule of 2 is interesting but the general public is not aware of it. It's also potentially a dumb rule because both of them could be wiped out in a single accident or event. It's only a small chapter of Sith history and was not always in place. It's an easy way to both simplify and deepen the story however.
Star Trek doesn't have the mythology or fantasy/history element of Star Wars. It would be quite boring to have a Star Trek level analysis. The rule of 2 is interesting but the general public is not aware of it. It's also potentially a dumb rule because both of them could be wiped out in a single accident or event. It's only a small chapter of Sith history and was not always in place. It's an easy way to both simplify and deepen the story however.
Yes. Star Trek has no history elements. At all. No Cold War allegory. Nope. Not even social commentary.
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Originally Posted by Locke
Thats why Flames fans make ideal Star Trek fans. We've really been taught to embrace the self-loathing and extreme criticism.
there is so much Star Wars coming at your face over the next decade it will make your head spin. think Marvel Cinematic Universe for a sense of what they've got planned. we'll all get our fill and then some.
I'm a pretty casual Star Wars fan. I don't read fan fiction or anything, I just watch the movies and play games.
If Luke turns evil I will cry.
But also, is there any whispers of an episode 8 or 9? Or is episode 7 the be all and end all?
In an earlier trailer Luke is narrating about how he was a Jedi, like his father before him. If it is revealed that he's evil, then he's the new Sith Lord? And Adam Driver is the person that he's speaking to in the narration?
Yea there are spinoffs planned, tv series, comics, video games, action figures, lego, pogs, pregnancy tests... you name it, Star Wars will be on it for the foreseeable future.
It will be a nice break from the Comic Book domination. I hope that this movie just blows Avengers out of the water.
__________________ "In brightest day, in blackest night / No evil shall escape my sight / Let those who worship evil's might / Beware my power, Green Lantern's light!"
Star Trek doesn't have the mythology or fantasy/history element of Star Wars. It would be quite boring to have a Star Trek level analysis. The rule of 2 is interesting but the general public is not aware of it. It's also potentially a dumb rule because both of them could be wiped out in a single accident or event. It's only a small chapter of Sith history and was not always in place. It's an easy way to both simplify and deepen the story however.
this is literally what happened with Sidious and Vader being wiped out, its the end of the Sith line for at least a very long time. The EU tried to get around this by creating a different Sith philosophy that was in hiding throughout the Empire days which lived by the one rule, a bunch of Sith serving one uber Sith.
But if you look back on Sith Lore, without going into date detail you can see why the rule of two became necessary
1) At the beginning of the Jedi order, some Jedi begin to study the dark side of the force, they were convinced that the Jedi shouldn't turn themselves off of the entire force, they're labeled heretics and expelled, a major civil war begins within the Jedi Order. the Jedi eventually win and exile the vanquished Dark Jedi who end up finding the Sith Species
2) The Dark Jedi enslave the Sith, find a way to breed with them and the Sith Dark Side cult is pretty much founded, they have the golden age of the Sith where they build a vast empire. They never forget their rage at the Jedi and their stupid light side philosophy.
3) the ruler of the Sith empire eventually dies and causes a split between his two senior apprentices. They basically start backstabbing the crap out of each other. One of them invades the republic but fails, when he returns he's attacked by the other Sith and his followers. during the civil war the Republic finds the Sith empire and begins a campaign of clensing and genocide in an attempt to wipe out the dark side users forever.
4) A few Sith Survive and under a new empire go into exile, they eventually found a new empire under this Empire and the Republic forgets about them and the Jedi go back to doing good works.
5) The Sith eventually re-emerge as a mighty empire, and put the republic on the ropes. But backstabbing and strife all encouraged by the emperor under the philosophy that only the strong deserve power eventually cause the destruction of the Sith Empire. Darth Revan rises during this period as well and puts the beginning touches on the rule of two. His reasoning is that if there are a lot of Sith it dilutes the strength of the Dark Side. It should be held and controlled by very few. He also felt that a master that took on multiple apprentices was inviting his own destruction.
The Sith are thought to have been removed from the galaxy
6) A fallen Jedi, revives the Sith with the philosophy of equality among Sith Lords. He builds a vast army of Lords and Sith Warriors and Assasins, but this movement fails because the Sith eventually start fighting among each other and they are weakened.
Darth Bane rises at this time, and looks at the Sith as a failure. He creates the rule of two, he sees an army of equality as a perversion of the Sith. He finds Darth Reven's holocron and the rule of two and refines it. He decides to cleanse the Sith Philosophy and decides that an army of Sith will never defeat the Jedi because of the need for Sith to gain power and backstab each other to do it. He also feels that the Jedi will always win in open warfare with the Sith because of the dilution of the Darkside. He exterminates the Sith and takes an apprentice and goes into hiding.
7) He begins a long imposed exile where the Sith will study the Dark side of the Force and their enemy the Jedi and continue to learn and pass these learning to his apprentice who will eventually become more powerful then him and take his Mastery. Bane also decides that the Sith should focus on deceit and guile. The Bannite Sith remain in hiding for a extended period of time and begin to work the levers of politics behind the curtains corrupting the Republic. At the same time they study and learn and increase their power. Whenever a apprentice destroys his or her master the Sith's individual powers grow as they wait to execute the Grand Plan.
8) Darth Sidious eventually rises, he's probably the most powerful Sith that ever lived with a concentration of thousands of years of Sith learning, but he's unique in terms of his ability to deceive and distract. He decides the time has come for him to execute his grand plan which he does politically. He takes on a apprentice, but one that is more of a tool then someone that will surpass him. After the useful death of that one he takes on another apprentice that is a tool that he uses to destroy and replace the republic.
Sidious doesn't need to use the Dark Side of the Force to destroy the Republic, he is not only powerful but he's an opportunist, he uses his levers or political power to destroy the Jedi and basically is begged to form the Empire.
After 30 years in power, the Emperor is killed as is his apprentice. The Bannite Sith are wiped out.
130 years later the New Sith seize control of the galaxy under the one rule philosophy created by Darth Krayt. but basically his rule falls to power due to backstabbing and the weakening of the Sith.
I know a lot of this is no longer Canon.
But the rule of two is fascinating because its the philosophy of the concentration of power to one enlightened being, with an apprentice who craves to take that power.
If the Apprentice isn't strong enough and fails to kill his master he or she is unworthy of the Sith Lord Mantle and another is found. If the Apprentice is strong enough to kill his or her master, then the Master is unworthy and the Apprentice is stronger and the Sith Line becomes a little more powerful.
Also the Sith went away from their warrior background and need for an army to conquer. they basically evolved to become the honest Iago's of the Star Wars universe and manipulated the Republic and the Jedi into destroying themselves.
Yoda as he was being pummeled by Sidious realized that the Jedi had trained for a thousand years to fight a Sith that no longer existed, that the Sith had evolved and learned everything they could about the Force and the Jedi themselves and were the true masters of the Force and that the Jedi were going to have to do something similar and that was go back to the drawing board, and do penance.
The problem with Sidious is that he fell into the same trap that the Jedi did. He became arrogant and became blind to the coming tide as the Force turned against him like it did the Jedi.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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Yea there are spinoffs planned, tv series, comics, video games, action figures, lego, pogs, pregnancy tests... you name it, Star Wars will be on it for the foreseeable future.
It will be a nice break from the Comic Book domination. I hope that this movie just blows Avengers out of the water.
Nice, I love pogs.
But is there going to be a legit ep 8 and 9 that continues the "main" story?
