Bob Hartley and the Coaching Staff Thread

[Armchair Quarterback]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

So the problem is that 23 players forgot how to play this system over the summer?

With new players on the roster, captain rusty from missing the last third of last season, some deadweight on the roster, etc., this is more plausible of an argument than saying that the Stanley Cup-winning, Jack Adams coach who got us to the second round somehow forgot how to coach over the summer.

[Huntingwhale]

As easy as it is to blame the coaches, you have 21 human beings on the ice each in control of their own actions and thinkings. The coach isn't some magic being who controls them like a video game. It's up to the players to get their heads in the game and execute. Things like winning board battles. Shooting the puck when given an opening. Playing physical when battling for the puck. All things that the Flames have quite frankly sucked at all season long. Good teams like Chicago, NYR and St. Louis do those things and have success because of it.

I don't think it's teams adjusting to our system as much as it is what Jay Random said: the players are in need of a reboot. Why is it that when the Flames lose it's always because the other team adjusted to our system? Why can't we be the ones to impose our will regardless of what their system is? I'm tired of the Flames constantly trying to adjust what the opposition is doing. The Flames should be the ones out hitting, out skating and out shooting the opposition. The Flames should be imposing their will. That's what good teams do.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

As easy as it is to blame the coaches, you have 21 human beings on the ice each in control of their own actions and thinkings. The coach isn't some magic being who controls them like a video game. It's up to the players to get their heads in the game and execute. Things like winning board battles. Shooting the puck when given an opening. Playing physical when battling for the puck. All things that the Flames have quite frankly sucked at all season long. Good teams like Chicago, NYR and St. Louis do those things and have success because of it.

I don't think it's teams adjusting to our system as much as it is what Jay Random said: the players are in need of a reboot. Why is it that when the Flames lose it's always because the other team adjusted to our system? Why can't we be the ones to impose our will regardless of what their system is? I'm tired of the Flames constantly trying to adjust what the opposition is doing. The Flames should be the ones out hitting, out skating and out shooting the opposition. The Flames should be imposing their will. That's what good teams do.

It happens every year by multiple teams.... change the coach to mix things up. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Might be magic beans, but easier to change a coach then 21 players.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

It happens every year by multiple teams.... change the coach to mix things up. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Might be magic beans, but easier to change a coach then 21 players.

I don't think the Flames are at the point yet. They came sputtering out of the gate, yes. But give it some time. If they are still playing like this by Christmas the season is lost anyway so then you fire the coach.

I think realistically you give a guy like Bob at least half the year or a full year before you make changes.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I don't think the Flames are at the point yet. They came sputtering out of the gate, yes. But give it some time. If they are still playing like this by Christmas the season is lost anyway so then you fire the coach.

I think realistically you give a guy like Bob at least half the year or a full year before you make changes.

Probably true, but if you wait that long, the season is lost. The standings are tight and its hard to make up ground (see: Minnisota, Colorado, Dallas last year) Hartley is (probably) a good coach, but there are also lots of good coaches out there. And lots of good coaches get replaced mid-season to shake up the team, we might be seeing one soon with another Cup winning, Jack Adams coach too.
And, there are lots of Cup winning, Jack Adams coaches out there that Hartley can be replaced by.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Probably true, but if you wait that long, the season is lost. The standings are tight and its hard to make up ground (see: Minnisota, Colorado, Dallas last year) Hartley is (probably) a good coach, but there are also lots of good coaches out there. And lots of good coaches get replaced mid-season to shake up the team, we might be seeing one soon with another Cup winning, Jack Adams coach too.
And, there are lots of Cup winning, Jack Adams coaches out there that Hartley can be replaced by.

I wouldn't say there are lots of Jack Adams coaches waiting for a job. Basically Brad needs to decide right now if firing Hartely and replacing him gives us a better chance at playoffs than keeping Hartley and hoping he turns this around.

Personally I think it's the latter, and I think Brad does too.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I wouldn't say there are lots of Jack Adams coaches waiting for a job. Basically Brad needs to decide right now if firing Hartely and replacing him gives us a better chance at playoffs than keeping Hartley and hoping he turns this around.

Personally I think it's the latter, and I think Brad does too.

You do have better mind reading skills then me, so I can't really argue that.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

You do have better mind reading skills then me, so I can't really argue that.

It's a burden that I carry.

[GranteedEV]

I'm kind of annoyed at the two extremes people seem to be gravitating towards.

"Hartley's system sucks and is totally ineffective now that teams have figured it out" - Yes, it took them 15+ years to "figure it out"?

"Hartley Jack Adams GTFO" - Yes, because the Jack Adams means anything, ever.

NHL Coaches are all flawed and most are pretty good unless they're Eakins levels of bad.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I wouldn't say there are lots of Jack Adams coaches waiting for a job. Basically Brad needs to decide right now if firing Hartely and replacing him gives us a better chance at playoffs than keeping Hartley and hoping he turns this around.

Personally I think it's the latter, and I think Brad does too.

I don't think the decision process of this magnitude is nearly as simple as all of that. A GM has to tread very carefully in his handling of the consistently tenuous relationship between his coaches and players. Firing a coach can work to illicit better performances from players under certain circumstances, but this is not always the case. If a GM pulls the trigger on his coach too many times with the same group of players, then I would argue that this is also prone to produce much more serious longer term problems.

All that to say, even if a coaching change could help in the short term, the timing is all wrong. Treliving has a limited number of times in his tenure to make coaching changes, and he will probably want to let this play out as long as possible before replacing Hartley and his staff. How long will that be? That depends upon if you believe the top priority for the Flames is a playoff berth, or if there is a longer view that always takes precedence over that.

I don't believe that Hartley will be the coach to lead this team to a championship, but that doesn't mean I think he is a poor coach, nor that he is not the right coach for the Flames at present. I still think there is another level to which he can and will guide the core, and it would be counterproductive to replace him before that happens.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

As easy as it is to blame the coaches, you have 21 human beings on the ice each in control of their own actions and thinkings. The coach isn't some magic being who controls them like a video game. It's up to the players to get their heads in the game and execute. Things like winning board battles. Shooting the puck when given an opening. Playing physical when battling for the puck. All things that the Flames have quite frankly sucked at all season long. Good teams like Chicago, NYR and St. Louis do those things and have success because of it.

I don't think it's teams adjusting to our system as much as it is what Jay Random said: the players are in need of a reboot. Why is it that when the Flames lose it's always because the other team adjusted to our system? Why can't we be the ones to impose our will regardless of what their system is? I'm tired of the Flames constantly trying to adjust what the opposition is doing. The Flames should be the ones out hitting, out skating and out shooting the opposition. The Flames should be imposing their will. That's what good teams do.

It's not quite so simple. Teams have adjusted to our strategies and we have doubly confounded the issue. First of all our stretch pass has been figure out as has our breakout plan, the along the boards puck side breakout is pretty much our standard play and it gets taken away very frequently because the other teams know this.

Second we changed our defensive coverage for some reason. Defensive coverage that worked last year has been changed from forcing shots to the outside to a Chinese fire drill where players are standing doing nothing or trying to stop shots with low success rate.

We need to adjust the breakout strategy and get back to forcing perimeter shots. The board battles, the hitting and the shooting improves with confidence alone and until we have a strategy that creates confidence as opposed to obliterating it the hustle and effort won't matter. There are massive bodybuilders that have lost arm wrestling competitions to pint sized chinese dudes because the strategy was so much more effective that imposing ones will was impossible even with a massive physical advantage. The defensive strategies were simple because we were a new team, now it's time to evolve and adapt much like in martial arts, if you don't adapt and instead remain stagnant the sport passes you by.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I don't think the Flames are at the point yet. They came sputtering out of the gate, yes. But give it some time. If they are still playing like this by Christmas the season is lost anyway so then you fire the coach.

I can see exactly how this would play out. Flames are still not in a playoff spot by Christmas, neither are the Ducks who have parted with BB a month before hand. Hartley is instantly hired by Anaheim who goes on an unreal terror to a SC win. Firing Bob Hartley this season regardless of the outcome for Calgary would be an astronomical error.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I can see exactly how this would play out. Flames are still not in a playoff spot by Christmas, neither are the Ducks who have parted with BB a month before hand. Hartley is instantly hired by Anaheim who goes on an unreal terror to a SC win. Firing Bob Hartley this season regardless of the outcome for Calgary would be an astronomical error.

On the plus side, we'd get a 2nd round pick out of it.

[Armchair Quarterback]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I'm kind of annoyed at the two extremes people seem to be gravitating towards.

Extremes are what CP does best! Come on now! Join in the fun.

Fire Hartley! Trade Hamilton! Blow up the team! Iginla sucks!

Etc.

Don't worry, it'll be the opposite extreme once we start winning again: every other team sucks, Oilers and Vancouver doubly suck, etc.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Not going to quote that short novel you just wrote, but I mean really?

Gosh, that's such a convincing argument. When all else fails, attack the length of the other party's post.

Because, you know, the truth is always short and simple and requires no explanation.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Armchair Quarterback

With new players on the roster, captain rusty from missing the last third of last season, some deadweight on the roster, etc., this is more plausible of an argument than saying that the Stanley Cup-winning, Jack Adams coach who got us to the second round somehow forgot how to coach over the summer.

I don't think he forgot how to coach I just think he was a mediocre coach at best to start with and last year wasn't so much about coaching as some people may have thought.

And "got us to the second round" had a lot more to do with a super sweet match-up than great coaching. A match up against any other Western conference play-off team and I think we are out and that doesn't make Hartley any worse of a coach if that had happened.

[Icon]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Probably true, but if you wait that long, the season is lost.

Devils advocate: So? We're still supposed to be rebuilding. Get positive seasons out of the young guys, draft a stud with a high pick. Overall for the future that's a win.

Personally I hope we're in the hunt all season like last year. It seems obvious that Hartley (or someone on the coaching staff) has something that drives the young guys, so canning him seems like a massively shortsighted move.

[Armchair Quarterback]

Originally Posted by adc

I don't think he forgot how to coach I just think he was a mediocre coach at best to start with and last year wasn't so much about coaching as some people may have thought.

Ok that's fine. I have provided reasonable evidence to the contrary -- notably, a Stanley Cup win and a good season last year which defied almost everyone's expectations. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion about him. I am going to wait until more hockey has been played this season before I make a final decision. I for one hope that people are wrong about Hartley and that he proves people wrong.

And "got us to the second round" had a lot more to do with a super sweet match-up than great coaching. A match up against any other Western conference play-off team and I think we are out and that doesn't make Hartley any worse of a coach if that had happened.

Yeah, it's almost like there wasn't a thing called the regular season before that, wherein we had to win enough games to get into the playoffs in the first place.

The irony of your argument is that for some reason Hartley bears no responsibility for last year's success, yet all of it for this year's failures. Seems to me that some credit should be given where it is due.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by adc

I don't think he forgot how to coach I just think he was a mediocre coach at best to start with and last year wasn't so much about coaching as some people may have thought.

And "got us to the second round" had a lot more to do with a super sweet match-up than great coaching. A match up against any other Western conference play-off team and I think we are out and that doesn't make Hartley any worse of a coach if that had happened.

Eh, Flames could have beat any of Vancouver, Winnipeg or Nashville. I agree Minnesota and St. Louis were a brutal matchup though.

[adc]

Lots of mediocre coaches have won Cups with stacked teams. Marc Crawford has basically the same level of accomplishments- Stanley Cup, Jack Adams (youngest winner), Swiss League title, AHL finals instead of win- but I doubt many people here think he is anything more than mediocre and many probably think less of him than that.

As for last year I believe the Flames were 16th in the league in the regular season last year so right about middle of the pack or mediocre.

I don't think I have said that this year is Hartley's fault, in fact I said I think he will be here for the whole year and I think he does deserve some credit for last year as well so that last part of your quote is completely made up.

My "argument" is that Hartley is a mediocre coach and that last year he had a better than normal year and this year he is having a worse than normal year. I don't think he is as good as he looked last year or as bad as he looks this year. I do have questions about his defensive systems and worry he is more of a yelling motivator that can wear out his welcome, but I am not in the room so its hard for me to say for sure.