Bob Hartley and the Coaching Staff Thread

[activeStick]

The absolute worst thing the Flames can do right now is make a big trade involving "notable" players, fire the coach or for Hartley himself, change the system.

He didn't forget to coach all of a sudden and teams did not suddenly "figure the Calgary system out".

Changing the system is starting from scratch and even if they see success, it won't come for another 15-20 games.

The Flames need to believe in their system and believe that streaks start and end. Everything else right now is just noise.

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Some are saying the Flames game plan is now being stifled by other teams. One thing is it's a game plan that takes advantage of our teams talent while not trying to play a cycling game because we just don't have the horses to do it. Hartley's in a no win situation right now so probably we're going to take some lumps.

The other thing that I've thought is a reason for our slow start is the team was busy reading it's press clippings and thought a half a$$ed effort would do. Well it won't and what is a shame is that they've wasted the confidence of being a winner and need to start over again. It may be too late by the time they come around but on the bright side we may end up with a good pick at the end of the year.

I think we have the horses to play the cycle game. We have a combination of quickness and size that has proven capable of doing just that for over a year in the 3rd periods. IMO, it's their neutral zone play that's the problem as it prevents them from ever getting an offensive zone cycle or rush started. They are simply not getting the puck back after they dump it in, or not even getting it into the offensive zone due to turnovers in the neutral zone.

They need to figure the neutral zone out. The last few games have been much better in their own end and a step forward in the neutral zone, but they still have a ways to go.

[Fire Park '71]

Left wing lock, anyone? Might keep the games a little closer.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Southside

Something bothering me about Hartley. Some of those points in games when we're all losing our minds, the feelings likely not that much different on the bench. Call a damn time-out!

Calling a timeout is probably going to be a thing of the past. You need to keep it if you want to challenge a goal.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Engelland
Bollig
Raymond
Hamilton
Re-signing Ramo at a massive cap hit
Waiving Byron

Treliving's moves sure aren't looking good right about now.

Has Byron even played a game in Montreal yet?

You're mad about something that's completely insignificant.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by codynw

Has Byron even played a game in Montreal yet?

You're mad about something that's completely insignificant.

Why does it matter if he's played a game or not in Montreal?

He would help the Flames right now as he did last year.

[adc]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Why does it matter if he's played a game or not in Montreal?

He would help the Flames right now as he did last year.

A guy who is not good enough to play for the other 29 teams in the NHL is what the Flames are missing?

They must be in worse shape than I thought if that is the case.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Armchair Quarterback

Frolik - 5.5m
Hamilton - 5.5m
Hiller - 4.5m
Ramo - 2.8m
Raymond - 3.15m

Now only $1,795,434 of cap space. But hey we are not handcuffed financially, what with both Gaudreau and Monahan up for renewal next season.

Hiller, Ramo, Hudler, Jones and Russell are all coming off the books at the end of this year. Next year is Raymond, Bollig, Wideman, Smid and Engelland.

None of these deals are handcuffing the team financially. The team isn't stuck with a Clarkson like abomination.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think the problem is that the system kind of helped cover up the lack of offensive talent amongst the forwards. The team got more points from their defensemen than any other team and it helped get plugs like Jooris and Bouma to put up numbers that they really didn't have any business getting. Now teams are waiting for the stretch pass and anticipating defensemen getting into the rush which means the Flames have to gain entry into the opponents end more methodically and this team really doesn't have enough skilled forwards to be able to skate up the ice themselves and generate chances. You see the first line do it on occasion but that's about it and the team looks like they are spinning their wheels trying to generate offensive pressure. Lots of over passing and lots of lost puck battles.

I feel for Hartley in that he did such a brilliant job last year but as we see in all sports teams are quick to adapt and take away what you do well and just like say the 49ers who took the NFL by storm having Kaepernick run the read option in his first 1.5 years only two years later the team is bad and the guy doesn't even look like a starter as teams adjusted and took away the run and made him throw from the pocket. Bottom line is that innovation will take you only so far and eventually other teams catch up and you have to lean on talent. Right now there's just not enough talent between the pipes or in the forward group. I don't see this season turning around as I just don't see who's going to score for this team outside of the first line.

In the last 15 years or so, we have really only had 3 forwards that could gain the zone and distribute the puck, and one of them was a cancer (Tanguay). The other two - Huselius and Gaudreau. I think Brodie is a defenseman that can do the same thing. Have to come up with a system that takes advantage of those players we do have, and find more. Detroit plays a possession game, and they keep finding guys that fit that mold - we all thought they'd die when Datsyuk and Zetterberg retired, but Nyquist and Larkin seem to be able to carry the torch. I don't pay that much attention to Detroit, so there may be others in the system.
Anyhow, I digress. We shall see if Hartley is capable of adjusting to the adjustment. The really great coaches can continue to adapt. I don't think he is a "great" coach, but he surprised me once already...

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by adc

A guy who is not good enough to play for the other 29 teams in the NHL is what the Flames are missing?

...Maybe 29 other teams have a player that fills Byron's niche, but the Flames don't, because Byron filled Byron's niche, and we gave him away for nothing?

[adc]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

...Maybe 29 other teams have a player that fills Byron's niche, but the Flames don't, because Byron filled Byron's niche, and we gave him away for nothing?

And they all had a guy that filled his niche the last time he cleared waivers, or the two times he has gone to FA and settled for one year deals for the basic minimum. If 29 teams all have a guy that fills Byron's niche that often it seems like it should be pretty easy for the Flames to fill that role internally.

I guess many posters here on CP could be right and Byron is as good as they continually try to tell but I think it is more likely that as the NHL has shown us multiple times he isn't.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by activeStick

The absolute worst thing the Flames can do right now is make a big trade involving "notable" players, fire the coach or for Hartley himself, change the system.

He didn't forget to coach all of a sudden and teams did not suddenly "figure the Calgary system out".

Changing the system is starting from scratch and even if they see success, it won't come for another 15-20 games.

The Flames need to believe in their system and believe that streaks start and end. Everything else right now is just noise.

Well it can't get any worse than it already is. 2 years ago when we were losing games, the hockey was still fun to watch. They competed and kept it close. These days I can't even watch a full game. It's so frustrating seeing them trying all the same things and watching broken play after broken play. It seems like they give up after the first goal is scored on them.

Guess what? Coaches don't take the off-season off. They watch videos and analyze teams. Figure out how to beat their system. Figure out why the Flames were able to win all those games with terrible advanced stats.

I don't think the team has scored on a single stretch pass breakout this year. Instead the puck is getting iced 3x more than before. If you look at these plays, the forwards sticks are being lifted or the players are being bumped so they can't touch the puck. Instead of other teams shooting in lanes, they are making that extra pass to find open lanes. They know the Flames defense relies on blocked shots and have instead been forcing the puck in close and then passing to the open winger on the other side. It's happened a dozen times already this season.

The only time our offense has had success this year is from Johnny not following the system and being his usual amazing self.

Adapt or die.

[heep223]

No doubt in my mind that Byron would help the team right now. Speed and plays every shift with passion.

[adc]

Originally Posted by heep223

No doubt in my mind that Byron would help the team right now. Speed and plays every shift with passion.

Then why does no team in the NHL want him to play for their team?

Is everyone in the NHL just that clueless and has been that clueless multiple times?

[heep223]

Originally Posted by adc

Then why does no team in the NHL want him to play for their team?



Is everyone in the NHL just that clueless and has been that clueless multiple times?

Most teams have plenty of depth forwards, they don't need him. He's small. But he brings something every shift that no flames player is currently exhibiting - passion and determination. He's not that great of a hockey player and he obviously wouldn't turn things around for the team, but I just feel they could use his speed and heart right now to get the boys going.

Why do you seem so butthurt about this?

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by heep223

No doubt in my mind that Byron would help the team right now. Speed and plays every shift with passion.

Agree. No one is saying he would be a saviour, but on spot duty he would probably contribute more than the bottom 5 or 6 forwards at this time. Having him there to play ahead of those guys might also be a stimulus for them to play better.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by heep223

Most teams have plenty of depth forwards, they don't need him. He's small. But he brings something every shift that no flames player is currently exhibiting - passion and determination. He's not that great of a hockey player and he obviously wouldn't turn things around for the team, but I just feel they could use his speed and heart right now to get the boys going.

Why do you seem so butthurt about this?

Byron's voting for Bernie!

[adc]

Originally Posted by heep223

Most teams have plenty of depth forwards, they don't need him. He's small. But he brings something every shift that no flames player is currently exhibiting - passion and determination. He's not that great of a hockey player and he obviously wouldn't turn things around for the team, but I just feel they could use his speed and heart right now to get the boys going.

Why do you seem so butthurt about this?

I am not butthurt about it I have just have yet to hear an actual reason why despite being shown time and again that every NHL team doesn't see him as good enough posters here seem to continually think that Byron should be playing on the Flames.

So I will leave it as I disagree that his speed or supposed determination would do anything to change what is happening here. I also fail to see if that is what missing how there isn't someone in the organization that can bring that passion and determination other than Byron.

This team is missing secondary scoring and quality goaltending. Byron brings neither of those. While I understand that fans tend to like to watch small guys go balls out and that creates fan favorites Byron has been with the Flames 4 years and in that time he has rarely if ever changed the course of a single game let alone a season.

It just seems so odd to me to see so many people thinking he is anything close to what this team needs or that we lost something when he left other than a warm body.

[Flamenspiel]

The Flames have had a tough schedule. if they win the games should have (against Vancouver and Edmonton), we are at 4-5, which would be respectable. In comparison to last year, I believe we had a 1-8 record against WASH, NY, NYI, and St Louis last year, so this should not really be unexpected.

So Edmonton played better then last year, and the Flames mailed in a stinker on opening night against Vancouver. Even the wins were very much like last year, tie it late and win in OT.

The Flames were counting on an improvement because of players like Frolik Hamilton and the emergence of Bennett. Not that Frolik and Bennett have been bad, but these are marginal improvements.

Yes, to the eye, the Flames look much worse then they are but it appears that the 2015 Flames are much like the 2016 Flames, our expectations were too high and other teams have maybe improved a little bit more. Perhaps a step back to restock the prospect cabinet is not a bad thing, after all we moved our best three picks and the Flames are back down to mid level prospect ratings again.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

The Flames have had a tough schedule. if they win the games should have (against Vancouver and Edmonton), we are at 4-5, which would be respectable. In comparison to last year, I believe we had a 1-8 record against WASH, NY, NYI, and St Louis last year, so this should not really be unexpected.

So Edmonton played better then last year, and the Flames mailed in a stinker on opening night against Vancouver. Even the wins were very much like last year, tie it late and win in OT.

The Flames were counting on an improvement because of players like Frolik Hamilton and the emergence of Bennett. Not that Frolik and Bennett have been bad, but these are marginal improvements.

Yes, to the eye, the Flames look much worse then they are but it appears that the 2015 Flames are much like the 2016 Flames, our expectations were too high and other teams have maybe improved a little bit more. Perhaps a step back to restock the prospect cabinet is not a bad thing, after all we moved our best three picks and the Flames are back down to mid level prospect ratings again.

I don't necessarily buy what you're selling here, but I understand it and it makes sense.

And I applaud your optimism.