Hamilton Discussion

[adc]

Originally Posted by HartAttack

As I've said in other threads, I believe that Hamilton is the WORST of our current Flames defensemen right now. He just isn't showing the defensive IQ required to play defense in the NHL.

While I agree that he's young and needs time to blossom, and will likely be a top pairing D-man for the Flames one day, he certainly is not worthy of playing top pairing minutes with Gio right now. Get him down on the 3rd pairing until he figures himself out.

You honestly think that if Kulak or Engelland were given the match-ups and ice time that Hamilton was given they would look better than he has?

Or bringing in Smid or Nakladal that they would be better suited in those roles?

Hamilton has shown in his time in Boston that he is a better defender than the 4 I mentioned so you have to think that he has really regressed pretty badly if you think that he should be moved to the bottom pairing and one of those 4 be given more mintues than him.

Plus the loss of offense that those bring they have to be that much better defensively than he was to make it worth the Flames while to make that change.

[Armchair Quarterback]

"He's only 22", wait and see, etc., ok, fine. I can do that. But didn't we have a post on the main page of this site a few months ago saying that his presence on the team changes our outlook? That we can expect this team to be better, faster?

Seems to me that the people really fired up about a signing like Hamilton are the first to downplay expectations when he gets called out for, let's be honest, sucking.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by adc

You honestly think that if Kulak or Engelland were given the match-ups and ice time that Hamilton was given they would look better than he has?

Yes.

Listen I am positive on the Hamilton and his future on this team. But he's been really, really bad.

[adc]

Originally Posted by heep223

Yes.

Listen I am positive on the Hamilton and his future on this team. But he's been really, really bad.

Kulak struggled with 11 minutes a game against the bottom lines of teams but he would be fine moving up to play 24 minutes a night against Ovechkin, Backstrom, Tarasenko and the Sedins?

[powderjunkie]

He's 22. He is 22. Oh and one more important point to consider...he is 22.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by adc

Kulak struggled with 11 minutes a game against the bottom lines of teams but he would be fine moving up to play 24 minutes a night against Ovechkin, Backstrom, Tarasenko and the Sedins?

No I don't think he'd be fine playing 24 minutes a night against those guys. But that's not what you said. Here is what you said:

Originally Posted by adc

You honestly think that if Kulak or Engelland were given the match-ups and ice time that Hamilton was given they would look better than he has?

Hamilton played 6 minutes against Backstrom and 7 minutes against Ovechkin, not sure where you got your 24 minutes from. Yes I honestly think that if Kulak or Engelland were given the match-ups, they would look better than he has. He has looked like something in between a pilon and a dumpster fire.

Again - I like Hamilton and I think he will be a stud. But let's just be honest here.

[adc]

Originally Posted by heep223

Hamilton played 6 minutes against Backstrom and 7 minutes against Ovechkin, not sure where you got your 24 minutes from. Yes I honestly think that if Kulak or Engelland were given the match-ups, they would look better than he has. He has looked like something in between a pilon and a dumpster fire.

Again - I like Hamilton and I think he will be a stud. But let's just be honest here.

24 minutes is roughly what I guessed Hamilton has averaged this year and from what I have seen he and Giordano have played the most against the other teams best players. I think Kulak and Engelland would look much worse playing Hamilton minutes both defensively and obviously offensively.

Hamilton gets much more criticism because of his contract and the hype that some posters incorrectly put on him. If you look at each player in a vacuum taking out contract and hype Hamilton has looked better than Kulak, Engelland and Wideman for sure and at times Gio and Russell. That isn't saying he has been good but the defense has all been pretty bad this year.

Kulak showed well for a young guy with limited experience but he is back in the AHL for a reason. But let's just be honest here.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by adc

24 minutes is roughly what I guessed Hamilton has averaged this year and from what I have seen he and Giordano have played the most against the other teams best players. I think Kulak and Engelland would look much worse playing Hamilton minutes both defensively and obviously offensively.

Hamilton gets much more criticism because of his contract and the hype that some posters incorrectly put on him. If you look at each player in a vacuum taking out contract and hype Hamilton has looked better than Kulak, Engelland and Wideman for sure and at times Gio and Russell. That isn't saying he has been good but the defense has all been pretty bad this year.

Kulak showed well for a young guy with limited experience but he is back in the AHL for a reason. But let's just be honest here.

I don't really disagree with anything that you're saying here, except for the bolded. Like I said, Hamilton played 6 or 7 minutes against Ovie/Backstrom. He has looked really, really bad. The worst out of all of our D if you look at aggregate play. Sure he's been better at times than the other D. That's not saying much.

It has nothing to do with his contract. It's just my opinion.

I think they'll all turn it around shortly, and go on a winning streak through a tough part of the schedule. Because, well it's the Flames. They're weird.

[Enoch Root]

Hamilton has gotten off to a rough start. He'll be fine.

Suggesting Kulak would have been better in the same situations is pretty silly IMO.

Not that Brodie is the savior or anything, however, getting him back and giving him top pairing minutes should help Giordano, as well as giving the other 4 defensemen more manageable ice-time and situations.

Once the defense settles, and the goaltending settles, the team will be fine

[adc]

Originally Posted by heep223

I don't really disagree with anything that you're saying here, except for the bolded. Like I said, Hamilton played 6 or 7 minutes against Ovie/Backstrom. He has looked really, really bad. The worst out of all of our D if you look at aggregate play. Sure he's been better at times than the other D. That's not saying much.

It has nothing to do with his contract. It's just my opinion.

I think they'll all turn it around shortly, and go on a winning streak through a tough part of the schedule. Because, well it's the Flames. They're weird.

I don't think Hamilton has been the worst but he obviously needs to be better especially defensively. I think he will look much better on a 2nd pairing (although with who I am not sure) and Brodie/Gio doing the heavy lifting.

[Bs&Cs]

Hamilton has never been physical and probably won't ever be so the comparisons to Bouwmeester in that way are valid. Offensively he has the potential to be elite but he is always going to need a more defensively sound partner. He isn't a write off but he's better off on the second pair and on the pp.

For such a big guy he should have played closer attention to Chara while he had the chance on how using his size effectively doesn't always mean blowing a guys doors off.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Some people are so hysterical. Chill out.

[HartAttack]

Originally Posted by adc

You honestly think that if Kulak or Engelland were given the match-ups and ice time that Hamilton was given they would look better than he has?

Or bringing in Smid or Nakladal that they would be better suited in those roles?

Hamilton has shown in his time in Boston that he is a better defender than the 4 I mentioned so you have to think that he has really regressed pretty badly if you think that he should be moved to the bottom pairing and one of those 4 be given more mintues than him.

Plus the loss of offense that those bring they have to be that much better defensively than he was to make it worth the Flames while to make that change.

If you remember last season's playoffs, Engelland played top pairing minutes with Brodie, and the pair actually did admirably well considering the circumstances. I'm not saying Engelland is a top pairing defenseman, but I am saying that as a defensive player, he's currently much better than Hamilton, and would be a better option for the top pairing at the moment.

So I guess my answer is 'yes'.

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by Armchair Quarterback

"He's only 22", wait and see, etc., ok, fine. I can do that. But didn't we have a post on the main page of this site a few months ago saying that his presence on the team changes our outlook? That we can expect this team to be better, faster?

Seems to me that the people really fired up about a signing like Hamilton are the first to downplay expectations when he gets called out for, let's be honest, sucking.

I think the excitement was partly about getting a shiny new toy...you'll always have excitement when your team acquires a very promising young player.
I also think that most people looked at Hamilton as an amazing #3 defenseman, who would most likely step into the top pairing with Brodie, once Gio started to fall off.
I think right now, Hamilton is young, trying to adjust to a new system, and trying to adjust to a much different style of play in the west vs. the east. If he weren't being subbed in for Brodie, but playing on the second/third pairing with pp time, I think he would be looking a lot better.

Could we have another Bouwmeester situation here? Maybe, but it's far too early to panic. Let's see what he looks like when he's not being asked to carry the mail as much with Brodie coming back.

[adc]

Originally Posted by HartAttack

If you remember last season's playoffs, Engelland played top pairing minutes with Brodie, and the pair actually did admirably well considering the circumstances. I'm not saying Engelland is a top pairing defenseman, but I am saying that as a defensive player, he's currently much better than Hamilton, and would be a better option for the top pairing at the moment.

So I guess my answer is 'yes'.

In a very limited time frame Engelland did perform well, not sure they were that great against Anaheim though, but through out the vast majority of his career Engelland has shown that he is a bottom pairing guy and Hamilton has shown he is a top 4 player.

It seems pretty short sighted to make changes based on 6 games (in which Hamilton has played better than Engelland or Kulak) and hope that the small sample size from last year will be the real results and not the vast majority of games we have seen from Engelland outside of that.

At this point maybe it would be nice to put guys like Engelland, Smid, Kulak, Nakladal in the Hamilton role just to show posters how bad they would struggle, but I don't think the Flames can afford to give away games to make a point to internet posters and I don't really want to watch Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Nyqvist rack up easy goal after easy goal tonight.

[Finger Cookin]

I'll bet you $10,000 that Datsyuk doesn't get a point against the Flames tonight, let alone score a goal.

[Vinny01]

I can see the similarities between Dougie and Bouw. Both are big body, smooth skating, soft spoken, highly touted Dmen that joined the Flames from the east with a ton of expectations. The biggest difference is Bouw was 25, coming off 3 straight 49+ot seasons and paid nearly $7M a season. As many have stated here Dougie is only 22 and makes nearly a million less than Bouw with a higher cap. I am definitely prepared to give Dougie a long leash before I join the lynch mob

[adc]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

I'll bet you $10,000 that Datsyuk doesn't get a point against the Flames tonight, let alone score a goal.

With some of the pairings that some posters want I think Datsyuk may be able to score all the way from Detroit (or the PB if he is with the team.)

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Armchair Quarterback

Seems to me that the people really fired up about a signing like Hamilton are the first to downplay expectations when he gets called out for, let's be honest, sucking.

Personally, I'm downplaying expectations because I thought all the talk in the summer about a franchise, stud defenceman were overblown in the first place. Despite his size, Hamilton has never played with an edge. And while he'll almost certainly get better defensively, it isn't inevitable that he develops into an elite 2-way guy. To be honest, I see Hamilton as a very good #3 who can move the puck and put up a lot of points on the powerplay, but who you won't want to rely on to shut down top opposing forwards.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Personally, I'm downplaying expectations because I thought all the talk in the summer about a franchise, stud defenceman were overblown in the first place. Despite his size, Hamilton has never played with an edge. And while he'll almost certainly get better defensively, it isn't inevitable that he develops into an elite 2-way guy. To be honest, I see Hamilton as a very good #3 who can move the puck and put up a lot of points on the powerplay, but who you won't want to rely on to shut down top opposing forwards.

I agree with all of this, and I also believe it's "enough" to justify the cap hit. Right now though, he needs to be better on those rudimentary plays - stronger on the man in front of the net, identifying who to defend on the rush. Hamilton should be much better than Wideman once he settles into his role, and that's all we need out of him, not a 6'5" Shea Weber.