Person Hit by Train at Chinook Station

[Daradon]

Yeah, and my experience with locked gates and turnstyles is, like Locke says, it just breeds the better idiot. People constantly jump them. It's second nature. Dunno if that helps here.

I mean, he just got off the train. Even if your in your own world, in your own world you just got of a train. You know, even in habit, even on autopilot, you need to wait for that train to pass.

Flacker is saying what I meant with the driver comment. If your are having these complete blackout lapses around vehicles, you need to smarten up. In fact, something like this is probably the perfect wake up call (he was uninjured).There's often no second chances. And, that's scary, cause when he's driving, he can hurt a lot more than just himself. I really hope he learned his lesson, and not just around trains.

[Minnie]

Nvm, missed it was already covered.

[habernac]

This morning's NE train death "not accidental"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...6-ne-1.3283671

[GGG]

The problem with grade separated crossings is that it makes the stations less open and safe so there is a lot of thought put into that design.

I think the video isn't typical of these incidents. In the Chinook one this person wait d for the north bound train then after it passed opens the gates with the lights still on to get hit by the south bound train.

How many people open the gate after the first train goes by before the lights go off. The answer is everyone. He just didn't look the other way.

The question of designs job on personal safety is interesting. There is a cost to add in measures but humans are terrible at risk assessment. Our evolutionary make up has made us very susceptible to under estimate the probability of low frequency events.

If you want to look at it from a cold cost benefit point of view a death cost 2 hrs of productivity for 30k of people plus long term impact to the driver. So 60,000 hrs are lost. How much should be spent to prevent that loss.

And you can't say don't get hit by trains because we live in a world where people get hit by trains

[GGG]

is there just the double gate thing or an actual arm coming down there. A physical barrier is likely better then just redirecting traffic.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by GGG

And you can't say don't get hit by trains because we live in a world where people get hit by trains

Do we live in a world where people get hit by trains, or just a city where people get hit by trains?

I just wonder how much of this goes back to how much right of way pedestrians have in general in Calgary. When I go back to Winnipeg I have to make sure I focus on my walking so I don't get hit. In other places around the world, the pedestrians have even fewer rights. Do they have the same number of vehicle vs pedestrian incidents that we do?

Speaking in general terms, most pedestrians proceed as if vehicles will see them and stop. Does that put us into a false sense of security? I have heard of a few different pedestrian fatalities that from the reports sound like although the driver was at fault, the accident could have been prevented if they had been more cautious.

If this was due to a momentary lapse in focus, was the cause of the lapse due to the fact that less care is needed by pedestrian to cross vehicle paths than in other parts of Canada, or the world?

[WhiteTiger]

One thing to keep in mind is that all the safety features in the world won't keep someone determined to use a train in this manner from doing so. More 'at scene' safety features aren't needed, it's a rare case that someone 'zones out' and 'accidentally' walks into a train.

More "safety features" are needed in the back end, but they would be called accessible mental health professionals, not 'safety features'.

[zamler]

So some people that get killed by trains should have been in therapy, interesting take.

[pylon]

Let's just call a spade a spade.

The city was too cheap to design these right, and it's costing lives, regardless of if people are morons with their faces glued to their phones. It is a condition of society now, that posting the dessert you had at Swiss Chalet in your activity feed, over rides every other single thing in the world, because the world must know how awesome that dessert was, RIGHT NOW!

This stupidity has to be adapted to, because you are not going to change the masses.

The city was cheap asses, and now people are getting cut in half by trains, while hundreds of people get to watch and be traumatized for life. There is no other excuse for these horrid station designs.

You wanna run around and tout your city as world class.... Install world class infrastructure. Not train stations that belong in once horse towns.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Do we live in a world where people get hit by trains, or just a city where people get hit by trains?

I just wonder how much of this goes back to how much right of way pedestrians have in general in Calgary. When I go back to Winnipeg I have to make sure I focus on my walking so I don't get hit. In other places around the world, the pedestrians have even fewer rights. Do they have the same number of vehicle vs pedestrian incidents that we do?

Speaking in general terms, most pedestrians proceed as if vehicles will see them and stop. Does that put us into a false sense of security? I have heard of a few different pedestrian fatalities that from the reports sound like although the driver was at fault, the accident could have been prevented if they had been more cautious.

If this was due to a momentary lapse in focus, was the cause of the lapse due to the fact that less care is needed by pedestrian to cross vehicle paths than in other parts of Canada, or the world?

It's an interesting question how many non suicide deaths occur in other cities with at grade access to light rail. The majors like New York and London at leader in the subway portion would never have a crossing like this.

How do you fix a culture of distraction?

We have the culture we have so unless you have a way to fix that, or consider the number of non suicide train fatalities acceptable then a design change should be considered.

This death does not occur with the old station design.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by pylon

Let's just call a spade a spade.

The city was too cheap to design these right, and it's costing lives, regardless of if people are morons with their faces glued to their phones. It is a condition of society now, that posting the dessert you had at Swiss Chalet in your activity feed, over rides every other single thing in the world, because the world must know how awesome that dessert was, RIGHT NOW!

This stupidity has to be adapted to, because you are not going to change the masses.

The city was cheap asses, and now people are getting cut in half by trains, while hundreds of people get to watch and be traumatized for life. There is no other excuse for these horrid station designs.

You wanna run around and tout your city as world class.... Install world class infrastructure. Not train stations that belong in once horse towns.

They were intentionally designed at grade. It wasn't necessarily a cost thing. Chinook used to have a non at grade crossing. This was a design choice to improve safety from crime. I think saying they are cheap isn't fair unless you want fully grade separated which carries its own problems related to economic isolation of communities

I think these choices are much more complicated then you make them out to be

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by pylon

Let's just call a spade a spade.

The city was too cheap to design these right, and it's costing lives, regardless of if people are morons with their faces glued to their phones. It is a condition of society now, that posting the dessert you had at Swiss Chalet in your activity feed, over rides every other single thing in the world, because the world must know how awesome that dessert was, RIGHT NOW!

This stupidity has to be adapted to, because you are not going to change the masses.

The city was cheap asses, and now people are getting cut in half by trains, while hundreds of people get to watch and be traumatized for life. There is no other excuse for these horrid station designs.

You wanna run around and tout your city as world class.... Install world class infrastructure. Not train stations that belong in once horse towns.

Would you not consider Amsterdam a world class city?

This is what stations look like there, no barrier, no crossing lights, on grade. Trams run everywhere due to the low cost of stations and infrastructure.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Flacker

I have asked the question before, locked gates do not make any sense. How do you prevent people from being locked inside the barriers?

Panic bars, much like the ones installed on emergency exits in buildings. They allow the door to be locked on one side and pushed open easily on the other.

[Peanut]

Agree it is complicated design decisions and cost benefit analysis that includes the cost of lives (deaths) and injuries, as well as increased safety from other incidents (such as crime) given particular designs.

I do think something could be done about the gates. My understanding is a lot of the "non-suicide" train-pedestrain accidents are just like this Chinook one: people waiting at the crossing for the first train to go by, and they don't realize another train is coming into the station or leaving the station as well, so after the first goes by they assume it's clear and starting heading across.

Even if you can't or won't have empathy for the individual who was hit - a lot of presumably "non-idiot" people are impacted by these incidents. The driver, the first responders, the witnesses at the scene all have some level of trauma from seeing a presumably gruesome and accidental death. And the inconvenience to all the other commuters does have a cost as well.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Panic bars, much like the ones installed on emergency exits in buildings. They allow the door to be locked on one side and pushed open easily on the other.

Which means they can be circumvented, by reached over to the other side. If massive yellow signs saying "Look Both Ways for Trains", have no impact, I see a physical barrier being equally ineffective.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Agree it is complicated design decisions and cost benefit analysis that includes the cost of lives (deaths) and injuries, as well as increased safety from other incidents (such as crime) given particular designs.

I do think something could be done about the gates. My understanding is a lot of the "non-suicide" train-pedestrain accidents are just like this Chinook one: people waiting at the crossing for the first train to go by, and they don't realize another train is coming into the station or leaving the station as well, so after the first goes by they assume it's clear and starting heading across.

Even if you can't or won't have empathy for the individual who was hit - a lot of presumably "non-idiot" people are impacted by these incidents. The driver, the first responders, the witnesses at the scene all have some level of trauma from seeing a presumably gruesome and accidental death. And the inconvenience to all the other commuters does have a cost as well.

I'm not against making things safer if they need be, and I did even admit the crossing at Chinook is a bit messy for the volume it serves. I'm just approaching it from the angle of, what is the cost now, and what would be the cost to change it, (both monetary and human suffering) and counter arguing some of the misplaced hysteria that was prevalent earlier. Accidents do happen, that's a fact of life. A sudden spike does not mean the sky is falling, especially when you take a closer look. And that's what's needed, a closer look. Before we start jumping to conclusions and declaring it unsafe, or bad infrastructure.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Flacker

Would you not consider Amsterdam a world class city?

This is what stations look like there, no barrier, no crossing lights, on grade. Trams run everywhere due to the low cost of stations and infrastructure.

I've been there, and it's disingenuous to compare the 2. Those run at much lower speeds, are smaller, stop more frequently and are more like a street car than an LRT.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flacker

Amsterdam is a good example of putting the onus back on the individual. There are bikes, and vehicles everywhere and if you aren't paying attention, you will get hit. They have LRVs slightly smaller than our C-train, that run straight up the middle of pedestrian boulevards (similar to 8th Ave), and I haven't heard of any locals getting hit by trains.

An average of 10 pedestrians a year are killed by trams in Amsterdam.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I've been there, and it's disingenuous to compare the 2. Those run at much lower speeds, are smaller, stop more frequently and are more like a street car than an LRT.

LOL, those would look awesome going 90 KPH 3 feet from the sidewalk.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by pylon

LOL, those would look awesome going 90 KPH 3 feet from the sidewalk.

Welcome to the Green Line! Seriously, that's the plan....Low floor LRT integrated with the street to provide some sort of "community" feel. But run it like an LRT.