Layton/NDP wants Canada to pull out of Afghanistan

[Mr.Coffee]

Here's a link (hopefully it works.. let me know if it doesn't) to the Goldman Sachs report about the economic incline of the BRIC nations.

Shouldn't this worry the States? Especially when China and Russia aren't really cooperating with the U.S.?

Isn't China currently selling the Iranians uranium?

My timeframe was a bit off, it mentions that the overtake could be more like 40-50 years. But if the right alliances occur... it's not out of this world to see the U.S. in a dangerous position is it?

edit: forgot the link..

http://www2.goldmansachs.com/insight...t%20economy%22

It's not like this conflict can't escalate.

[Scorponok]

Who else feels the way I do about Layton's moustache? That man is not to be trusted, IMO!

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

Who else feels the way I do about Layton's moustache? That man is not to be trusted, IMO!

A little like Ned Flanders

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Sure... but the average Westerner probably can't discern who 'they' are, and HOZ/White Doors/Jolinar types seem to paint the entire region with the broadest of strokes, declaring the religion and the people themselves are inherently drawn towards terrorism more than anyone/where else on the earth. I think this ignores the 'reasons' for terror. Completely.

Well thanks for not including me in that list.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I'm not either by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have sat back and patiently formulated an intelligent response to curb the violence and promote overall understanding/awareness. After 9-11, the USA was pretty ****ed- and it almost seemed like they went to war based on raw patriotic emotion rather then a secure plan of attack. Does this sound inaccurate?

Also, think about the intelligence Bush received regarding Iraq. Would Gore, having received that 'same' intelligence, gone a different route with it?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Also, think about the intelligence Bush received regarding Iraq. Would Gore, having received that 'same' intelligence, gone a different route with it?

A lot of people believe the intelligence was manipulated to provide reasons to go to war. Supposedly this manipulation was either performed by or cooperated with members of the Bush administration. I know some intelligence analysts have said that they were bullied into providing 'the right conclusions', because the intelligence was to be used for political purposes (the invasion of Iraq), I think current UN ambassador John Bolton's name came up in that regard during his confirmation hearings.

I believe the Bush administration wanted the war in Iraq. I don't know if Gore would also have wanted war in Iraq... he strikes me as the type who wouldn't though.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Hakan

Xenephobes begon.

I'm much more scared of people like White Doors and Jolinar than I am of every single muslim person I meet.

Your scared of me? Unbelievable..

Where did I say that I was scared of EVERY single muslim? Maybe re-read my post.... I said that a very small group of muslims are the people we need to fear. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
You decide to alter what I said in my post by making it appear that I am some kind of Right wing purist who has no room for any other culture or group.

Typical of liberal thinking. Everyone's opions are valid unless they go agains a liberal idea.

Not sure if you know this but history has a tendency in repeating itself.

How do you eplain Iran and Korea?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Not sure if you know this but history has a tendency in repeating itself.

How do you eplain Iran and Korea?

What the heck are you talking about here? There is no context for this statement. You do realize that when you put an example out you're supposed to tell people what its an example of.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Did you march in the anti-war rally's?

Laugh. And he dodges the question again.

No I didn't march in the rallies. So what? I wouldn't have made a difference by committing 3 hours to the cause. Joining the military to help defeat a global and personal threat, now that's actually making a difference.

I'm just trying to understand how someone who actually believes their life, faith, posessions, family, freedom and all that are under a looming threat can sit back and just wait for it to happen.

Maybe, and I suspect this is the answer, deep down they don't really believe the threat exists. Oh sure, they know that bad things will happen from time to time and wars will be fought by other people on the other side of the world, but they don't actually believe there is even a possibility that "the West" could ever come under the thumb of an Islamic theocracy. With "our" positively insurmountable military, economic and cultural advantage, it's not possible for such a thing to ever happen, so even though some people might say the threat exists to justify certain foreign policy decisions and attitudes, they go about their daily lives as if the threat doesn't exist because they know it really doesn't.

[jolinar of malkshor]

It isn't???? Actual it is. You look at any of the extermist teaching in Islam and that is the primary goal. Every non-believer needs to be brought into the fold of Islam. Thats why they wanted to kill that dude in Afghanistan when he converted from Islam to Christianity. Many Extremists texts show that if someone who was once a Muslim converts to another religion must be given a chance to convert back. If they don't they should be killed.

Again, another poster that doesn't read my posts. I actually said that what the US is doing is worse of then not doing anything at all. So why would I join the military to purpetuate the problem. Not only that one can serve thier country without joining the military. I am in a career that deals with people from these countries and I am helping prevent these people from commiting terrorist attacks on Canada.

Is that good enough for you?

Really?? You must think the only way to deal with this is through military means. How very narrow minded. Much more can be done through political means.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

A lot of people believe the intelligence was manipulated to provide reasons to go to war.

Exactly my point. Of course it was manipulated, I think that is pretty obvious. But do you really think Bush made up the whole 'WMD' idea, and used to justify going into Iraq?

Seriously, as imcompetent as he may seem at times, we should at least realize that he only acted upon the information 'given' to him. How he used that information was then his decision. Would Gore have done the same thing? Probably not, as he'd spend the billions the US spends on the military on global warming stuff.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Maybe, and I suspect this is the answer, deep down they don't really believe the threat exists.

I believe the threat exists. Anyone who doesn't is living in an illusion.

Just how serious it is can be debatable.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Laugh. And he dodges the question again.

No I didn't march in the rallies. So what? I wouldn't have made a difference by committing 3 hours to the cause. Joining the military to help defeat a global and personal threat, now that's actually making a difference.

I'm just trying to understand how someone who actually believes their life, faith, posessions, family, freedom and all that are under a looming threat can sit back and just wait for it to happen.

Maybe, and I suspect this is the answer, deep down they don't really believe the threat exists. Oh sure, they know that bad things will happen from time to time and wars will be fought by other people on the other side of the world, but they don't actually believe there is even a possibility that "the West" could ever come under the thumb of an Islamic theocracy. With "our" positively military, economic and cultural advantage, it's not possible for such a thing to ever happen, so even though some people might say the threat exists to justify certain foreign policy decisions and attitudes, they go about their daily lives as if the threat doesn't exist because they know it really doesn't.

Longer term I DO see a threat to our societies in the west that value secular freedoms, individual rights, free press etc etc. As mentioned before, as the BRIC countries and others further develop and expand their strategic, political and cultural influence throughout the world, we face a crossroads. If these new societies reject the notions above, then that is the threat. If you look into the coming demographics, if we can't 'sell' our way of life to them now, then we could be in some trouble. Perhaps I exaggerated a bit in comparison to WW2, but the threat is there, it is 100% different in nature but it is there. me joining the army won't make a lick of difference. The good news is that countries are starting to stand up to it by reaffirming their secular laws, (France, Australia, Netherlands, Ontario, etc.) But with the BRIC economies and the fundamental Islamic threat, there is a large change in the geo-political solutions that could have been traditionally sought in the past. One only needs to see the difficulty in try to get a Security council resolution against Iran even though they are clearly violating the anti-proliferation treaty. China now needs Iran more than the USA and is willing to vote accordingly.

Can you see what I am trying to say now? Or do you just want to keep calling me an idiot? Please let me know so I don't waste my time.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Really?? You must think the only way to deal with this is through military means. How very narrow minded. Much more can be done through political means.

If the hordes are only 15 years off from converting me to to their religion and sending my niece home from school with a sheet over her head then I think the time for diplomacy and politics is about up, don't you?

Earlier you said this:

he people that run these governments have one real goal. Global domination and conversion to Islam.

That simply is not true. Your most recent post did not address this issue, you went off on a tangent about extremism or something.

Here is a little exercise that anyone is more than welcome to take part in.

The one goal of _____________'s government is global domination and conversion to Islam.

Fill in the blank and explain to the rest of us how they are going about doing this and how much progress they have made please.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Exactly my point. Of course it was manipulated, I think that is pretty obvious. But do you really think Bush made up the whole 'WMD' idea, and used to justify going into Iraq?

I think the Bush administration manipulated intelligence to rally support from the American public for the war in Iraq. So... yes, I do believe they manipulated the intelligence, which is as bad as making it up.

Seriously, as imcompetent as he may seem at times, we should at least realize that he only acted upon the information 'given' to him. How he used that information was then his decision. Would Gore have done the same thing? Probably not, as he'd spend the billions the US spends on the military on global warming stuff.

I don't think so. I think people working with and under Bush wanted the War, and he either A) didn't care, B) wanted it too, C) didn't have a choice because he doesn't really call the shots.

Numerous intelligence officials have come out since and said that they were coerced into providing the 'right' analyses to support US involvement in Iraq by administration officials. The whole CIA agent leak thing with Novak was about the administration punishing a US diplomatic official who called bunk on the uranium-from-Africa lie.

I think to believe that Bush/Bush administration were 'duped' by the intelligence community into believing there were WMD's is wishful thinking. They were the dupers, not the dupees.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Longer term I DO see a threat to our societies in the west that value secular freedoms, individual rights, free press etc etc. As mentioned before, as the BRIC countries and others further develop and expand their strategic, political and cultural influence throughout the world, we face a crossroads. If these new societies reject the notions above, then that is the threat. If you look into the coming demographics, if we can't 'sell' our way of life to them now, then we could be in some trouble. Perhaps I exaggerated a bit in comparison to WW2, but the threat is there, it is 100% different in nature but it is there. me joining the army won't make a lick of difference. The good news is that countries are starting to stand up to it by reaffirming their secular laws, (France, Australia, Netherlands, Ontario, etc.) But with the BRIC economies and the fundamental Islamic threat, there is a large change in the geo-political solutions that could have been traditionally sought in the past. One only needs to see the difficulty in try to get a Security council resolution against Iran even though they are clearly violating the anti-proliferation treaty. China now needs Iran more than the USA and is willing to vote accordingly.

Can you see what I am trying to say now? Or do you just want to keep calling me an idiot? Please let me know so I don't waste my time.

I'm having a bit of a hard time following you.

The so-called BRIC countries are advancing, okay fine, but what does that have to do with Islamic fundamentalism and Canadian troops in Afghanistan?

I understand that it'll be nice if these emerging economies/societies adopt or retain some of our nifty practices but I don't see the connection to the Middle East. You aren't suggesting that these BRIC countries are possibly going to adapt the policies and customs of, say, Saudi Arabia, are you?

I really don't think we have to worry about that. People who are getting rich and enjoying all the good things that come with it don't normally go in for dictatorships, theocracies or tyranny.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm having a bit of a hard time following you.

The so-called BRIC countries are advancing, okay fine, but what does that have to do with Islamic fundamentalism and Canadian troops in Afghanistan?

I understand that it'll be nice if these emerging economies/societies adopt or retain some of our nifty practices but I don't see the connection to the Middle East. You aren't suggesting that these BRIC countries are possibly going to adapt the policies and customs of, say, Saudi Arabia, are you?

I really don't think we have to worry about that. People who are getting rich and enjoying all the good things that come with it don't normally go in for dictatorships, theocracies or tyranny.

I guess not. But if an alliance between countries that are heavily involved with each other (in terms of trading)- can lead to bad things. Wouldn't you agree?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I guess not. But if an alliance between countries that are heavily involved with each other (in terms of trading)- can lead to bad things. Wouldn't you agree?

I think he would... but what does that have to do with Islamic extremism?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I guess not. But if an alliance between countries that are heavily involved with each other (in terms of trading)- can lead to bad things. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't know. I suppose. What are we talking about here? Got an example -- even a hypothetical?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Sure... but the average Westerner probably can't discern who 'they' are, and HOZ/White Doors/Jolinar types seem to paint the entire region with the broadest of strokes, declaring the religion and the people themselves are inherently drawn towards terrorism more than anyone/where else on the earth. I think this ignores the 'reasons' for terror. Completely.

Please show me where I lumped the entire region into the terrorist category.

I am getting sick and tired of people slandering me. Have some respect.