Ramo vs Hiller vs Ortio: The Debate

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

You mean most posters. You are the vocal, ignorant minority. Like I said, debating with you is beyond hope and I'm done. You can look at my previous posts which seem to be beyond your comprehension. Hence my giving up.

And don't act like you've seen him in the NHL. He was amazing last season. You've already admitted to watching 0 of the Heat games, yet you think you actually have a valid opinion on a player you've barely seen based on a couple of stats you compared across leagues and teams.

Come on dude. Debating back and forth is one thing. But calling someone ignorant because they disagree with you?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You also claimed he was dominant in the AHL. Can you support that?

Other than the eight tough games to open 2014-15 (where he was still 3-3-1), Ortio stopped 1738 of 1876 shots for a .926 save percentage along with being an AHL All-Star between Sept 2013 to his injury in February 2015.

[dammage79]

Screw it, trade for Jack Campbell and roll the dice. pogge 2.0.

More seriously, Hiller all the way over Ramo. Ortio replaces Ramo as the 1b option and fills in the starts Hiller doesn't make. I was comfortable with the tandem as it was last year and Ramo has done nothing to supplant Hiller. But I fully understand there's a pretty large base of Ramo enthusiats here. I just don't see why the Flames gamble on a 1b/1b option than 1a/developing goalie tandem.

[kyuss275]

I wonder if GM and Coach are on the same page when it comes to goaltenders?

GM obviously does not want to lose Ortio for nothing on waivers. By now if GM wanted Ortio gone he could have traded him. I think Ortio has the most trade power.

Coach has said Ortio is #3 on the depth chart. We are going into the third game and Ortio has not even got a back-up chance. You would think if Hartley truley thought Ortio was deserving to be the back-up then Ortio would be the back-up. Hartely does not strike me as a guy who puts players in the game to get their trade value up. He is there to win games. Right now i believe what he says about the 3 goalies. He thinks Ortio is #3. I have doubts if Hiller stinks it up, that Ortio gets next start. I think he goes with Ramo.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Other than the eight tough games to open 2014-15 (where he was still 3-3-1), Ortio stopped 1738 of 1876 shots for a .926 save percentage along with being an AHL All-Star between Sept 2013 to his injury in February 2015.

Those are great results for sure. But I suppose a lot of goalies would have gaudy save percentages if you take out their worst 8 game stretch.

[Jaydee]

If we lose tonight, give Ortio a start next game

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Other than the eight tough games to open 2014-15 (where he was still 3-3-1), Ortio stopped 1738 of 1876 shots for a .926 save percentage along with being an AHL All-Star between Sept 2013 to his injury in February 2015.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Those are great results for sure. But I suppose a lot of goalies would have gaudy save percentages if you take out their worst 8 game stretch.

Superficially, that looks like a logical objection. If, for instance, you took some particular goalie who had a rough stretch between January 12 and February 8, and left out those games, it would certainly give a misleadingly rosy picture of his season.

But in this case, there are sound reasons to consider putting those games to one side:

1. Those were the first 8 games of the season. They are therefore the oldest segment of the data. If, as one expects, Ortio is still developing, one would expect to see him put up better results as the season went on; and the place where he finished the season should be more likely to represent his current abilities than the place where he started.

2. One of Ortio's weaknesses last season, which I believe was pointed out by people in the Flames organization, was off-season preparation. He wasn't ready in October, and had to play his way into form. That being so, the games he played in October did not fairly represent his abilities. (It still remains his fault that he wasn't prepared. This is a diagnosis, not an excuse.)

3. This year, albeit with a limited sample size, Ortio performed very well in the pre-season, against opposition at least as good as the AHLers he faced last October. This suggests that he may have improved his off-season preparation.

What I see in Ortio is a goalie who is very good when he's on his game, but who needs to be healthy and well prepared to do it. Last October, he wasn't prepared. In that one game last April, he was recovering from a fairly major injury (and the team in front of him had nothing to play for).

If I'm in Treliving's shoes, I politely ask Hartley to give Ortio a regular-season start in the next week or so, to get a better read on his readiness for NHL action. Other than that, I don't rush to make any decisions until enough players return from injury to put the team over the 23-man roster limit.

At that point, assuming Ortio plays OK, I'm looking to (1) trade, (2) waive, or (3) send to the minors, whichever veteran goalie looks more expendable. Based on the evidence so far, that's Ramo; but if he turns into Kiprusoff Jr., or Hiller blows up like a Spinal Tap drummer, it could go the other way.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Come on dude. Debating back and forth is one thing. But calling someone ignorant because they disagree with you?

You think I called you ignorant because you disagree with me? You are talking about a player you have not followed and admitted you haven't seen play. That is the definition of ignorant whether you like the label or not.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Other than the eight tough games to open 2014-15 (where he was still 3-3-1), Ortio stopped 1738 of 1876 shots for a .926 save percentage along with being an AHL All-Star between Sept 2013 to his injury in February 2015.

Those 8 games still count though, you can't just leave them out because he struggled to start the year. People like to boost Ortio like he was completely dominant in the AHL, but the fact of the matter is he was still 31st in SV% and 35th in GAA. That is not dominant by any stretch of the imagination.

[FlamesAddiction]

I don't have a huge preference between Hiller and Ramo, but I do think we would regret not giving Ortio a good run in the NHL before deciding his future.

For me, it comes down to what we could get for one of the other 2. Take the best offer.

If all things were equal, I don't know if I could really choose. My gut says Ramo, but it's not a hill I would die on.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Those 8 games still count though, you can't just leave them out because he struggled to start the year. People like to boost Ortio like he was completely dominant in the AHL, but the fact of the matter is he was still 31st in SV% and 35th in GAA. That is not dominant by any stretch of the imagination.

When 80% of your team are first or second year pros, it's amazing he didn't get lit up. Adirondack would of had a terrible record without Ortio. Ask anyone who follows the AHL. The other 2 career AHL goalies looked atrocious in comparison. And they've been in the league for years.

You posters that reference a save percentage out of context are no better then all the HF posters who say the Flames will regress because of advanced stats. They sit in their chair spewing unsustainable talk without watching a single game. That's what you are doing with Ortio.

[442scotty]

Didn't bother to read the other 5 pages because they all probably say the same thing.... Hiller is better than Ramo but both are not very good...

[Huntingwhale]

Quick everyone, back to the Ramo bandwaggon!

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

When 80% of your team are first or second year pros, it's amazing he didn't get lit up. Adirondack would of had a terrible record without Ortio. Ask anyone who follows the AHL. The other 2 career AHL goalies looked atrocious in comparison. And they've been in the league for years.

You posters that reference a save percentage out of context are no better then all the HF posters who say the Flames will regress because of advanced stats. They sit in their chair spewing unsustainable talk without watching a single game. That's what you are doing with Ortio.

You sound like an Ortio expert. I have seen every one of his NHL starts but sounds like you have watched most of his AHL starts as well?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You sound like an Ortio expert. I have seen every one of his NHL starts but sounds like you have watched most of his AHL starts as well?

You certainly act like an Ortio expert. I followed the AHL closely last season, mostly the play-by-play and watched several games as well.

You say you've watched all of his NHL starts and yet you say he wasn't impressive in the NHL?

I have a feeling you only watched game 82 of last season which was a meaningless game.

We likely would not of made the playoffs last year if Ortio didn't go on his amazing 4 game winning streak against division rivals. That was a time where the team was struggling and he was absolutely dynamite.

Your posting history indicates that you are a bandwagon fan which is why I don't think you watched all of his previous games.

[Strange Brew]

I will take you at your word that you watched Ortio closely in the AHL. You would think if that were the case you would be able to more clearly explain the reason for your belief in him.

As for being a bandwagon fan, I plead guilty as charged. I did not start closely following the Flames until they moved to Calgary.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Those 8 games still count though, you can't just leave them out because he struggled to start the year. People like to boost Ortio like he was completely dominant in the AHL, but the fact of the matter is he was still 31st in SV% and 35th in GAA. That is not dominant by any stretch of the imagination.

No one is denying that he struggled early.

But to just look at the stats and say he wasn't dominant is also being blind. Here are the facts:

1) he started the season terribly - posting numbers that would anchor his stats for the entire season.

2) he then got rolling and was absolutely dominant, carrying a very young team on his back, until he got injured

3) without him in net, they were pretty awful

I couldn't care less what his stats were - a watched quite a few games and what I saw from him (other than in October) was extremely impressive.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I will take you at your word that you watched Ortio closely in the AHL. You would think if that were the case you would be able to more clearly explain the reason for your belief in him.

As for being a bandwagon fan, I plead guilty as charged. I did not start closely following the Flames until they moved to Calgary.

Well than I'm sorry your memory is starting to fail you. Maybe you should start drinking less Strange Brew.

[Enoch Root]

My take on the debate:

Neither Hiller nor Ramo is the answer. Pick one and get on with it.

Ortio MIGHT be the answer - we won't know until it plays out.

So make a decision and move one of the other two, and start playing Ortio as the backup and see how he performs vs the vet.

[DoubleF]

Conroy warned of potential regression didn't he? I wonder if this goalie debate and subsequent resolving action alone would fulfill it.