Ramo vs Hiller vs Ortio: The Debate

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Some good points brought up for sure. But there are some useless stats cited as well:

Yes the Heat were bad without Ortio. But doesn't that speak to how awful his backup was. Is that guy still playing hockey?

Pre season save % in 2 games doesn't mean much.

I guess what it comes down to is that Ortio has one thing the other two don't. Potential. And measuring that is very subjective.

Useless stats? I suggest you look at the Line-up Ortio shutout in Colorado. He shutout Colorado's A team with Calgary's C team.

Potential? You mean age. He has youth on his side and we are a young rebuilding team. One playoff appearance doesn't change that. I'm sorry if you can't see what a big deal it is that he has his best years in front of him instead of behind him.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Useless stats? I suggest you look at the Line-up Ortio shutout in Colorado. He shutout Colorado's A team with Calgary's C team.

Potential? You mean age. He has youth on his side and we are a young rebuilding team. One playoff appearance doesn't change that. I'm sorry if you can't see what a big deal it is that he has his best years in front of him instead of behind him.

I'm not even sure that is a stat, but regardless, the result of one meaningless pre-season game is not at all a good indicator of anything. It can be a teeny tiny piece of what goes into an evaluation of Ortio (or any other goalie), but it's far from anything meaningful or the silver bullet you seem to be suggesting it is. I couldn't careless if he shut out Anahiem in Anahiem in one game during the regular season, in the big picture it means very little.

Regardless, Ortio's best years are hopefully a head, and I agree with you that from a rebuilding perspective that needs to be considered. However, even on a re-building team, being young simply isn't enough. How good do they think he can be. If the answer is, they don't think he'll ever be good enough to be their starter (not saying they think that, and admitting that's a hard thing to know for sure), then Ortio's age in comparison to the others is not relevant. If that's the case, then simply which ever goalie gives us the best chance to bridge until we can find our long term solution (Gilles or other) is wha the Flames should do.

I won't pretend to know what Ortio's ceiling is, or what the Flames think about him at this point. My best guess given on how things have been handled is that they aren't sold he is good enough to be our goalie of the future, but they also aren't sold he can't be.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

At the very least, if the Flames management considers him to be a good young backup, and already as good as one of the veterans, you get rid of the veteran. You do this, if for no other reason, for salary cap considerations. Any good GM these days is looking to continually turnover their lineup with younger and cheaper talent that is just as good as the outgoing talent. If you don't, you have to blow it up and restock the cupboard, usually meaning many years of losing. That's usually bad for the franchise, and for the longevity of the GM's career.

[Angelino]

Never liked Ramo. Too positionally unsound. Go with Hiller-Ortio and give Ortio some playing time so he can develop properly.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Useless stats? I suggest you look at the Line-up Ortio shutout in Colorado. He shutout Colorado's A team with Calgary's C team.

Potential? You mean age. He has youth on his side and we are a young rebuilding team. One playoff appearance doesn't change that. I'm sorry if you can't see what a big deal it is that he has his best years in front of him instead of behind him.

Come on now. A pre season shutout is close to meaningless. He played a good game but no one is making decisions based on that.

And I do mean potential, not age. His accomplishments, aside from the legendary Colorado game you are referencing, are still relatively minor. I don't know how you can speak in such absolutes about Ortio's career trajectory.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I'm not even sure that is a stat, but regardless, the result of one meaningless pre-season game is not at all a good indicator of anything. It can be a teeny tiny piece of what goes into an evaluation of Ortio (or any other goalie), but it's far from anything meaningful or the silver bullet you seem to be suggesting it is. I couldn't careless if he shut out Anahiem in Anahiem in one game during the regular season, in the big picture it means very little.

Regardless, Ortio's best years are hopefully a head, and I agree with you that from a rebuilding perspective that needs to be considered. However, even on a re-building team, being young simply isn't enough. How good do they think he can be. If the answer is, they don't think he'll ever be good enough to be their starter (not saying they think that, and admitting that's a hard thing to know for sure), then Ortio's age in comparison to the others is not relevant. If that's the case, then simply which ever goalie gives us the best chance to bridge until we can find our long term solution (Gilles or other) is wha the Flames should do.

I won't pretend to know what Ortio's ceiling is, or what the Flames think about him at this point. My best guess given on how things have been handled is that they aren't sold he is good enough to be our goalie of the future, but they also aren't sold he can't be.

Save percentage is a stat, and it's all the more impressive in context.

My main point is that Ortio has done nothing to warrant any doubt in his abilities. He had a strong pre-season, a strong NHL showing last season and has been dominant in the AHL for 2 seasons.

Hartley starting Ramo and Hiller before Ortio could just as well be an indicator that they are shopping these goalies and showing them off to the rest of the league. They deemed Ortio the number 3 goalie to start the season, but maybe that's to prop up the value of Ramo or Hiller. From an asset management standpoint, it's a sound strategy. If a GM saw one of the other two as the third string goalie, I doubt they'd be offering as much.

Again it's speculation, but Ortio has been trending upwards for the last 2 years and it seems silly to think he could be traded instead of the other two.

[FBI]

Hope Ortio gets a start soon.. Maybe if Hiller loses the STL game.

Ortio just gives me such a sense of peace and confidence compared to the other two guys.. I would be extraordinarily pissed if we lost Ortio for a 2nd or worse.

[Flame19,289]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Save percentage is a stat, and it's all the more impressive in context.

My main point is that Ortio has done nothing to warrant any doubt in his abilities. He had a strong pre-season, a strong NHL showing last season and has been dominant in the AHL for 2 seasons.

Hartley starting Ramo and Hiller before Ortio could just as well be an indicator that they are shopping these goalies and showing them off to the rest of the league. They deemed Ortio the number 3 goalie to start the season, but maybe that's to prop up the value of Ramo or Hiller. From an asset management standpoint, it's a sound strategy. If a GM saw one of the other two as the third string goalie, I doubt they'd be offering as much.

Again it's speculation, but Ortio has been trending upwards for the last 2 years and it seems silly to think he could be traded instead of the other two.

I wouldn't say that Ortio has been "dominant" in the AHL. Matt Murray in Wilkes-Barre and Jacob Markstrom in Utica were dominant last year. Ortio was pretty average and ranked 31st for Save%.

The question that I have about Ortio is whether the Canucks franchise owns the book on him. He was winless against Utica last year (W-L record of 0-8, pulled in another loss after giving up 3 goals; Thiessen ended up getting the L). In those nine games against Utica, Ortio's Save% was 0.891%. His save percentage was 0.916 against the rest of the AHL. That's a pretty significant difference.

Given that the Flames & Canucks are division rivals, how much attention should be paid to this? Maybe none... but I think it's worth at least considering it. Maybe this is part of the reason that he's 3rd on Hartley's depth chart.

[Street Pharmacist]

Matt Murray looks to be a good prospect, no?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flame19,289

I wouldn't say that Ortio has been "dominant" in the AHL. Matt Murray in Wilkes-Barre and Jacob Markstrom in Utica were dominant last year. Ortio was pretty average and ranked 31st for Save%.

The question that I have about Ortio is whether the Canucks franchise owns the book on him. He was winless against Utica last year (W-L record of 0-8, pulled in another loss after giving up 3 goals; Thiessen ended up getting the L). In those nine games against Utica, Ortio's Save% was 0.891%. His save percentage was 0.916 against the rest of the AHL. That's a pretty significant difference.

Given that the Flames & Canucks are division rivals, how much attention should be paid to this? Maybe none... but I think it's worth at least considering it. Maybe this is part of the reason that he's 3rd on Hartley's depth chart.

Ortio shut out the Canucks last season.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Flame19,289

I wouldn't say that Ortio has been "dominant" in the AHL. Matt Murray in Wilkes-Barre and Jacob Markstrom in Utica were dominant last year. Ortio was pretty average and ranked 31st for Save%.

The question that I have about Ortio is whether the Canucks franchise owns the book on him. He was winless against Utica last year (W-L record of 0-8, pulled in another loss after giving up 3 goals; Thiessen ended up getting the L). In those nine games against Utica, Ortio's Save% was 0.891%. His save percentage was 0.916 against the rest of the AHL. That's a pretty significant difference.

Given that the Flames & Canucks are division rivals, how much attention should be paid to this? Maybe none... but I think it's worth at least considering it. Maybe this is part of the reason that he's 3rd on Hartley's depth chart.

That's where the whole context within stats thing comes into play. I'm assuming you didn't read my previous post...

Utica is a veteran led team and was one of the favorites to win the Calder cup last season. Yes Markstrom looked good and was the main reason they traded Lack. If Ortio had Utica's veterans in front of him instead of Calgary's rookies, I'm sure he'd of looked just as good if not better than Markstrom (who by all accounts has otherwise under-performed the last few seasons).

You kind of just proved my point with that post, so thanks.

Also, I hope you realize Ortio shutout Vancouver last season (in the NHL). That kind of nullifies the last half of your post.

[Strange Brew]

[QUOTE=Bandwagon In Flames;5456710]Save percentage is a stat, and it's all the more impressive in context.

My main point is that Ortio has done nothing to warrant any doubt in his abilities. He had a strong pre-season, a strong NHL showing last season and has been dominant in the AHL for 2 seasons.

QUOTE]

I agree with your first point. Save percentage is a relevant stat. Both Hiller and Ramo had better save percentages in the NHL last season than Ortio had in the AHL. Ortio's AHL save percentages was in the upper middle of the pack for goalies.

As for your second point, maybe we have different definitions of dominant. I think you are implying that because he vastly outplayed the backup in Adirondack, he was dominant. I don't see it that way. Admittedly, I didn't see Ortio play a single game for Adirondack. His NHL starts were hot and cold, and on the whole his results were OK.

I do agree the guy has potential and would love to see the Flames get something of value for Ramo. IDK if that will happen.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I agree with your first point. Save percentage is a relevant stat. Both Hiller and Ramo had better save percentages in the NHL last season than Ortio had in the AHL. Ortio's AHL save percentages was in the upper middle of the pack for goalies.

As for your second point, maybe we have different definitions of dominant. I think you are implying that because he vastly outplayed the backup in Adirondack, he was dominant. I don't see it that way. Admittedly, I didn't see Ortio play a single game for Adirondack. His NHL starts were hot and cold, and on the whole his results were OK.

I do agree the guy has potential and would love to see the Flames get something of value for Ramo. IDK if that will happen.

I abandoned this post the second you compared AHL save percentage to NHL save percentage.

That combined with you agreeing with a Ricardo post is all I need to know that debating with you is beyond pointless. Carry on.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

...As for your second point, maybe we have different definitions of dominant. I think you are implying that because he vastly outplayed the backup in Adirondack, he was dominant. I don't see it that way. Admittedly, I didn't see Ortio play a single game for Adirondack. His NHL starts were hot and cold, and on the whole his results were OK...

This is technically correct, but again, suffers for lack of context.

Ortio started five straight games, and was the best player in the lineup in a winning streak through the first four. He had a bad game in is fifth straight start against Anaheim, but otherwise played extremely well. Even with the stumble, he posted a .932 SP and a shutout in those five starts. What was most impressive in that short stretch was that he kept the Flames in the playoff hunt in mid-January, all against division rivals.

His one and only other start came in Game #82 of the season, and he did not look good. However, this was also a meaningless game in which the Flames iced only a handful of their starters. To add to that, this was also Ortio's first game back from an injury layoff.

Sure, Ortio's statistical performance was little better than satisfactory, but this does not accurately reflect how well he did play when it mattered the most. If he were a 28-year-old tweener like Ramo, I would not be inclined to read much into this, but he isn't. Last year he played his 23-year-old season, and started a stretch of difficult games in which he looked like a NHL starter. That's pretty special, in my opinion.

*EDIT* ...and god, do I ever hate autocorrect.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

when you watch Ortio play, he plays such a sound style.

Just seconding this comment. Ortio plays a hybrid style that's based off strong initial positioning, nice edgework, and he controls rebounds like a dream. If there were a stat for "puck-freezes" I think Ortio is the best on our team by a fair margin - and that goes a long way because then you don't have Russell and Wideman and Engelland getting hemmed in.

Frankly, It's the kind of style that could win him a Vezina if he puts it together.

No doubt this is due to honing his game under legend Urpo Ylonen, who also had his hand in developing Kiprusoff.

[Gaudfather]

I get the sense that Hartley trusts Hiller more than Ramo, so a Hiller-Ortio tandem going forward may be what we see.

But that begs the question as to why Treliving resigned Ramo - he must have thought he had good trade options on Hiller that for some reason failed to materialize.

It is a curious situation, but if a team like Buffalo decided they want Ramo I would think that Treliving deals and maybe gets back a later round draft pick.

[Finger Cookin]

Signing Ramo gives Treliving the flexibility to make a final decision in October or November instead of in July.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I abandoned this post the second you compared AHL save percentage to NHL save percentage.

That combined with you agreeing with a Ricardo post is all I need to know that debating with you is beyond pointless. Carry on.

I don't think you really like facts. You brought up save percentage as an important stat. Can you explain how that supports your position? Or are you only referring to that epic pre season showdown in Colorado where Ortio sported the perfect save percentage.

You also claimed he was dominant in the AHL. Can you support that?

I must be an argumentative mood. I can respect the view of some posters that he looks like a stronger goalie than Ramo/Hiller but hopefully those posters appreciate that is a subjective view. I have only seen his NHL games and I don't see it yet.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don't think you really like facts. You brought up save percentage as an important stat. Can you explain how that supports your position? Or are you only referring to that epic pre season showdown in Colorado where Ortio sported the perfect save percentage.

You also claimed he was dominant in the AHL. Can you support that?

I must be an argumentative mood. I can respect the view of some posters that he looks like a stronger goalie than Ramo/Hiller but hopefully those posters appreciate that is a subjective view. I have only seen his NHL games and I don't see it yet.

You mean most posters. You are the vocal, ignorant minority. Like I said, debating with you is beyond hope and I'm done. You can look at my previous posts which seem to be beyond your comprehension. Hence my giving up.

And don't act like you've seen him in the NHL. He was amazing last season. You've already admitted to watching 0 of the Heat games, yet you think you actually have a valid opinion on a player you've barely seen based on a couple of stats you compared across leagues and teams.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Just seconding this comment. Ortio plays a hybrid style that's based off strong initial positioning, nice edgework, and he controls rebounds like a dream. If there were a stat for "puck-freezes" I think Ortio is the best on our team by a fair margin - and that goes a long way because then you don't have Russell and Wideman and Engelland getting hemmed in.

Frankly, It's the kind of style that could win him a Vezina if he puts it together.

No doubt this is due to honing his game under legend Urpo Ylonen, who also had his hand in developing Kiprusoff.

3rd.... I personally feel more at peace with Ortio in net

Ramo reminds me a bit of Fred Brathwaite, fun to watch but poor consistancy. I actually don't mind Hiller's consistancy, but he reminds me more of Roman Turek in the sense that he's consistent (IMO, many probably disagree) but not really that great.