Ramo vs Hiller vs Ortio: The Debate

[Cali Panthers Fan]

^^^ So much wrong with your post Ricardo that I can't even be bothered to respond.

[DoubleF]

My thoughts:

1. Trade one of Ramo/Hiller for a non-goalie, depending on whoever has more trade value. This is why there is a constant flip flop. You essentially have to give the other team the choice of the two. If Ramo is cold, Hiller is gone. If Hiller is cold, the other team might grab Ramo. Or maybe they grab the guy based purely on preference regardless of play as at trade date. It's purely based on the opposing team.

1A. Waive either of Hiller and Ramo, I really don't think they make it to the AHL. We'd easily get something for them even if it's a low pick, but Burke we know won't sell players for cheap for no reason. I doubt this happens.

2. Trade one of Ramo/Hiller with one of Ortio/Gilles for a bonafide starter. We'd have to add heavily for sure, but IMO the possibility exists we could see a goalie juggling that exceeds Ramo/Hiller.

[GioforPM]

I've always preferred Hiller to Ramo, but even more as a partner with a rookie goaltender.

Ramo is just fine and even great in stretches. But he tends to get happy feet, lose his net a bit and his rebounds go to the wrong spots a lot. Hiller is a blocker, but he plays the percentages. Will a shot go in top shelf when he plays his butterfly sometimes? Yes, and that's because of the design of his stance.

Hiller would get the far better return in a trade though, IMO.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

...1A. Waive either of Hiller and Ramo, I really don't think they make it to the AHL. We'd easily get something for them even if it's a low pick, but Burke we know won't sell players for cheap for no reason. I doubt this happens...

I tend to agree with this, but isn't it long past time we please stop pretending that Brian Burke is the Flames GM? This is now Treliving's team.

[codynw]

I'm still on the side of Ortio and one of the two veterans. Either one works, but I prefer Hiller. He's a little more consistent, and that's what you want when your other goalie is a rookie.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I can't believe we have to keep explaining this, but a 1 way contract has nothing to do with him playing in the NHL or AHL, it simply means he gets one salary whether he plays in the NHL or AHL. It means he doesn't make less if he plays in the AHL, that's all.

Ortio is in the NHL because he's no longer waiver-exempt and they risk losing him if they attempt to send him to the AHL on waivers. That's it. It has nothing to do with his contract.

The contract indicates that management feels he's ready for the NHL, as does their unwillingness to send him down. IMO, it's just a matter of time before a space is made for him on the team permanently. I just hope it's done in the next couple of weeks.

Further to that, putting Ortio on a one-way made him more likely to clear waivers if that was the way the Flames went with it.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Further to that, putting Ortio on a one-way made him more likely to clear waivers if that was the way the Flames went with it.

A couple of hundred K wasn't going to significantly impact Ortio's ability to pass waivers. If anything, his low salary being completely buriable regardless of where he plays makes him more enticing.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I tend to agree with this, but isn't it long past time we please stop pretending that Brian Burke is the Flames GM? This is now Treliving's team.

Fair enough. I don't mean it in a way that Burke is the GM though, but that Treliving and Burke for some odd reason almost seem like they think alike.

I will change to remove Burke from future mentions though.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Prefer to keep Hiller. As others have said, he's more consistent than Ramo, so that will be more helpful with Ortio coming through to eventual #1.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

^^^ So much wrong with your post Ricardo that I can't even be bothered to respond.

I am all for poking fun at Ricardo but his post has some good points.

Ortio has been good at the AHL level, maybe very good, but not dominant. There were well over a dozen goalies with better results last year. Yes Ortio did better after a slow start. But you can't just take out a players bad games when assessing their performance.

His NHL performance has shown flashes. Some good but some bad too.

I think he is a reasonable backup on a rebuilding team. Or a team with a true workhorse number one.

The Flames are acting like a contending team with 1a and 1b goalies. A poor fit for Ortio

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I am all for poking fun at Ricardo but his post has some good points.

Ortio has been good at the AHL level, maybe very good, but not dominant. There were well over a dozen goalies with better results last year. Yes Ortio did better after a slow start. But you can't just take out a players bad games when assessing their performance.

His NHL performance has shown flashes. Some good but some bad too.

I think he is a reasonable backup on a rebuilding team. Or a team with a true workhorse number one.

The Flames are acting like a contending team with 1a and 1b goalies. A poor fit for Ortio

Tenders are so hard to evaluate. Yeah maybe his numbers weren't dominant, but when you watch Ortio play, he plays such a sound style. You expect a goalie with the right tools (athleticism, proper technique and style) and good minor league numbers to translate to the NHL success. Eddie Lack comes to mind for me. Ramo, and to an extent Hiller have unconventional styles. Although their numbers are good, you almost are afraid to bet on your own goalie since he plays so much differently than the top tenders of the day.

Call it intuition or simply talent evaluation, but despite Ortio's non-dominant numbers in the AHL, he appears to have the proper tools to be successful in the NHL. Of course, anything can happen, but with good coaching and a good atmosphere around the club, Ortio seems poised to succeed and even outpace Ramo and Hiller as a pro NHLer.

PS: Essentially what I'm getting at is that you need to look at more than just stats with goalies, more so than any other position.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I am all for poking fun at Ricardo but his post has some good points.

Ortio has been good at the AHL level, maybe very good, but not dominant. There were well over a dozen goalies with better results last year. Yes Ortio did better after a slow start. But you can't just take out a players bad games when assessing their performance.

His NHL performance has shown flashes. Some good but some bad too.

I think he is a reasonable backup on a rebuilding team. Or a team with a true workhorse number one.

The Flames are acting like a contending team with 1a and 1b goalies. A poor fit for Ortio

No his post is all over the place and just has random stats that don't mean anything out of context as usual.

Ortio had a better record 2 years ago because the AHL team actually had veteran players who would play over rookies. The AHL squad last year was very much about developing the prospects instead of giving Veterans ice time to win games. Look at their record with Ortio in the line-up and without. That tells you all you need to know. Ortio was a beast last season given the very inexperienced team in front of him. The only reason they missed the playoffs was because Ortio was injured. They would of been a lock otherwise.

Even after playing 2 of 3 pre-season games with an AHL squad in front of him, his preseason save % is still .946.

You should feel bad for backing up a Ricardo post... He belongs on everyone's ignore list unless you want to get an ulcer.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Further to that, putting Ortio on a one-way made him more likely to clear waivers if that was the way the Flames went with it.

No Not at all.. If someone claims him on waivers he is under his NHL contract until they have to waive him if they want to send him down.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

...

I think he is a reasonable backup on a rebuilding team. Or a team with a true workhorse number one...

Or too is still really, really young, which is why a lot of posters are so high on him. I would agree that he is presently a good NHL backup, but there is still plenty of room and potential for him to be so much more—perhaps as early as this season.

Ortio recorded his first NHL shutout last year before he turned 24-years-old. He is still a tantalysing prospect.

[Strange Brew]

Some good points brought up for sure. But there are some useless stats cited as well:

Yes the Heat were bad without Ortio. But doesn't that speak to how awful his backup was. Is that guy still playing hockey?

Pre season save % in 2 games doesn't mean much.

I guess what it comes down to is that Ortio has one thing the other two don't. Potential. And measuring that is very subjective.

[Strange Brew]

double post

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That's ridiculous. Ramo is not a bonafide NHL starter, but he still provides a competent option as a backup goalie. I think he is a better goalie than Ben Scrivens.

I don't think it's ridiculous for the reasons I pointed out. Iffy backups are plentiful right now. Why would a team give anything up to get one? You think Scrivens is better, fine. I think they are the same and Scrivens has a larger body of work, so edge goes to him.

My point in all this is that Ramo should be odd man out and not to expect much in return for him.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Once Hiller has a bad game, who gets the next start?

Kipper.

[CMPunk]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Some good points brought up for sure. But there are some useless stats cited as well:

Yes the Heat were bad without Ortio. But doesn't that speak to how awful his backup was. Is that guy still playing hockey?

Pre season save % in 2 games doesn't mean much.

I guess what it comes down to is that Ortio has one thing the other two don't. Potential. And measuring that is very subjective.

Carr is with Albany and Thiessen had a try out with the Jackets farm team

[CMPunk]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

I don't think it's ridiculous for the reasons I pointed out. Iffy backups are plentiful right now. Why would a team give anything up to get one? You think Scrivens is better, fine. I think they are the same and Scrivens has a larger body of work, so edge goes to him.

My point in all this is that Ramo should be odd man out and not to expect much in return for him.

6 games difference between Ramo and Scrivens isn't that much