Layton/NDP wants Canada to pull out of Afghanistan

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

You guys are going to make Azure cry

Stop that right now, or I'll turn this car around!

Although I rarely, if ever, agree with Azure, I have to admit that White Doors brings out the beast in me and I should be more patient with a young man who clearly has yet to gain enough life experience to see the world beyond the way certain politicians and spin doctors portray it.

I've been fortunate enough to spend the best part of the last 15 years working in various countries around the world. It's given me the opportunity to recognize that the simplistic, black and white world that many of our politicians portray does not exist.

No culture, or religion, or race of people is inherently bad and every culture has its share of charismatic crackpots ready to destroy lives and livelyhoods.

As a young feller, I was as Conservative as they come, but my life experience has, I think, made me more humane. It's certainly given me a wider perspective.

I don't think its a coincidence that one of the first things the 2 reporters recently released by their captors in the West Bank said was that it was important to the people living there that the kidnappings stop so that reporters continue to be allowed to tell their stories.

I'm sure others will disagree but I believe the reason so many journalists are accused of having 'liberal' or 'leftwing' sympathies, is not because they started out 'liberal' but because they have witnessed first hand the injustice of this world brought about (usually) be misguided foreign policy at one time or another.

I'll climb off my soap box now.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Stop that right now, or I'll turn this car around!

Although I rarely, if ever, agree with Azure, I have to admit that White Doors brings out the beast in me and I should be more patient with a young man who clearly has yet to gain enough life experience to see the world beyond the way certain politicians and spin doctors portray it.

I've been fortunate enough to spend the best part of the last 15 years working in various countries around the world. It's given me the opportunity to recognize that the simplistic, black and white world that many of our politicians portray does not exist.

No culture, or religion, or race of people is inherently bad and every culture has its share of charismatic crackpots ready to destroy lives and livelyhoods.

As a young feller, I was as Conservative as they come, but my life experience has, I think, made me more humane. It's certainly given me a wider perspective.

I don't think its a coincidence that one of the first things the 2 reporters recently released by their captors in the West Bank said was that it was important to the people living there that the kidnappings stop so that reporters continue to be allowed to tell their stories.

I'm sure others will disagree but I believe the reason so many journalists are accused of having 'liberal' or 'leftwing' sympathies, is not because they started out 'liberal' but because they have witnessed first hand the injustice of this world brought about (usually) be misguided foreign policy at one time or another.

I'll climb off my soap box now.

first of all, you have no idea who I am, how old I am or where I have been. Second of all, you can debate me without putting words in my mouth can't you? You state what my beliefs are, how does that work? The nature of your responses to my posts dictate how weak your arguments are.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Oh come on now, don't got that route.

It was a real question. Do you actually believe there is a serious threat to the "Western World" and we could all be forced to convert to Islam and live under the rules as set by these people?

If you don't, then maybe you want to re-think the whole "they are as big a threat as Hitler was" idea.

I believe that there is a long term, serious threat to the 'wetern world', yes. I don't think converting to Islam has anythign to do with it. Can you try to keep the rhetoric to a minimum? I will try and have a serious discussion with you if you can try as well. I am not the only person who thinks this as well. I never even mentioned Hitler! Why do people insist on putting words in yoru mouth? I said that it is shaping up to be a clash of civilzations on par with that which was experienced in WW2 except with much different fundamentals. What is so inflammatory about that?

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by White Doors

first of all, you have no idea who I am, how old I am or where I have been. Second of all, you can debate me without putting words in my mouth can't you? You state what my beliefs are, how does that work? The nature of your responses to my posts dictate how weak your arguments are.

Well young feller, I just took the time to explain to the posters on this thread a little about myself and how I came to form the world view I have.

Why don't you take the time to introduce yourself in a bit more detail?

You ask how can I state what your beliefs are? Well, I believe I can state your beliefs with some level of confidence because you post them here every day. Are those your beliefs or not?

And without taking it to a personal level, I've responded to your posts with real world experience. The silence from your end is deafening.

Stop the arm waving and demonstrate to me and the other posters on the board how you've come to the conclusion that "we face a clash of civilizations" with "a significant proportion of the world's populaiton willing to kill civilians of the west."

The floor is yours. I'm all ears.

[Agamemnon]

I said that it is shaping up to be a clash of civilzations on par with that which was experienced in WW2 except with much different fundamentals. What is so inflammatory about that?

Because its not. In WWII there was a danger of the West losing. I'm not sure how the West 'loses' this fight. Our way of life, as far as I'm concerned, is not in danger. What is in danger is our ability to project influence and coercion in the resource-rich Middle East. While losing this influence may be a bad thing, I don't think it = our way of life... it just puts a few more bucks in our pockets (which is really what our Great Civilization is about).

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Well young feller, I just took the time to explain to the posters on this thread a little about myself and how I came to form the world view I have.

Why don't you take the time to introduce yourself in a bit more detail?

You ask how can I state what your beliefs are? Well, I believe I can state your beliefs with some level of confidence because you post them here every day. Are those your beliefs or not?

And without taking it to a personal level, I've responded to your posts with real world experience. The silence from your end is deafening.

Stop the arm waving and demonstrate to me and the other posters on the board how you've come to the conclusion that "we face a clash of civilizations" with "a significant proportion of the world's populaiton willing to kill civilians of the west."

The floor is yours. I'm all ears.

wow, you even got that quote wrong. you are not worth my time. I just ask that you stop addressing me and spreading falsities about myself.

thank you

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Because its not. In WWII there was a danger of the West losing. I'm not sure how the West 'loses' this fight. Our way of life, as far as I'm concerned, is not in danger. What is in danger is our ability to project influence and coercion in the resource-rich Middle East. While losing this influence may be a bad thing, I don't think it = our way of life... it just puts a few more bucks in our pockets (which is really what our Great Civilization is about).

If you look longer term, (which is what the fundamentalists do) there is a danger. Look at demographics. If the new generations do not think that the western ideals are the way to go, 'we' lose.

This is in no way meant to trivialize what happened in WW2. I am a big history buff, I'm just saying that we have to look longer term here. Western civilization is notorious for being 'next week' in outlook.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by White Doors

If you look longer term, (which is what the fundamentalists do) there is a danger. Look at demographics. If the new generations do not think that the western ideals are the way to go, 'we' lose.

This is in no way meant to trivialize what happened in WW2. I am a big history buff, I'm just saying that we have to look longer term here. Western civilization is notorious for being 'next week' in outlook.

Doesn't it work both ways? Shouldn't we be looking back at the history of this century to draw our conclusions about where the 'terrorists' came from? People here seem to think they popped out of nowhere to combat our freedom and way of life. There is a reason these people resist us that is beyond 'they hate freedom'. Real, economic, social, historical, and cultural reasons. Being a history buff, you agree? Or are these militants truly the embodiment of evil on earth, born that way and die that way?

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by White Doors

wow, you even got that quote wrong. you are not worth my time. I just ask that you stop addressing me and spreading falsities about myself.

thank you

Huh?

In the post above yours, Agamemnon quotes you as saying "it is shaping up to be a clash of civilizations" and the second quote was a cut and paste from one of your posts. I didn't even correct the spelling mistakes.

If you're afraid to debate just say so, but stop pretending I'm spreading falsities about you using your own words.

Feeling a little over matched are you?

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Doesn't it work both ways? Shouldn't we be looking back at the history of this century to draw our conclusions about where the 'terrorists' came from? People here seem to think they popped out of nowhere to combat our freedom and way of life. There is a reason these people resist us that is beyond 'they hate freedom'. Real, economic, social, historical, and cultural reasons. Being a history buff, you agree? Or are these militants truly the embodiment of evil on earth, born that way and die that way?

Of course there are reasons why, the same reasons why poor hindu's don't seem to have a compelling reason to blow up children in a crowded market.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Of course there are reasons why, the same reasons why poor hindu's don't seem to have a compelling reason to blow up children in a crowded market.

Are you sure about that? In Sri Lanka, Tamil Tigers target civilians, use children as soldiers and even employ suicide bombers. Tamil's are primarily Hindu's.

[White Doors]

Tamil's are mixed. They can be jewish, Christian, Hindu or muslim. Theirs is a ethnic conflict and they do not do it to fight the infidel.

[jolinar of malkshor]

It's unbelievalbe how short sighted people are. Is there an immediate threat to the Western world? Probably not, nothing that would involve invasions or forced conversions.

However, look ahead 15 to 25 years from now when these counties have finally been able to either obtain or build their own nuclear weapons. What then?

Were not talking about accepting democratic governments here. Were talking about Iran, who's goal is to wipe Isreal off the planet. The Taliban who forces Islam on every citizen and stoned women to death.

The people that run these governments have one real goal. Global domination and conversion to Islam. The majority of the people in these countries don't believe that but thats how dictatorship works. The minority rules the majority.

We need to stay in Afghanistan not just for ourselves but for the people of that country.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Of course there are reasons why, the same reasons why poor hindu's don't seem to have a compelling reason to blow up children in a crowded market.

Ok... so why don't you tell me why Muslims blow themselves up, but Hindus don't (in your opinion)? Are Muslim people more likely to blow themselves up than Christians? Jews? Hindus? Is it because of their faith in Islam? And if so, how do we explain the millions and millions and millions of Muslims who haven't raised a finger to fight 'the West' in our Glorious War on Terror? How do we explain the 1000's of muderers in American prisons as 'normal', but the 1000's of muderers in the Middle East are a threat to our civilization?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

It's unbelievalbe how short sighted people are. Is there an immediate threat to the Western world? Probably not, nothing that would involve invasions or forced conversions.

Its unbelievable how short a memory people have. We seem to think these militants popped out of thin air to take away our freedom. A laughable state of affairs when most of us don't really even know where our enemy 'came from', and why they fight. I guess thats the historian's job...

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Ok... so why don't you tell me why Muslims blow themselves up, but Hindus don't (in your opinion)? Are Muslim people more likely to blow themselves up than Christians? Jews? Hindus? Is it because of their faith in Islam? And if so, how do we explain the millions and millions and millions of Muslims who haven't raised a finger to fight 'the West' in our Glorious War on Terror? How do we explain the 1000's of muderers in American prisons as 'normal', but the 1000's of muderers in the Middle East are a threat to our civilization?

I would say that yes, muslims right now are more likely to do that. Why? radical teachings of their religion that emphasizes the martyrdom aspect of it. Also, Islam has specific instructions on government, something other major religions do not have, so this may make it more susceptible to perversion.

Not sure why you would classify murderer's as 'normal' but I would certanily think a break down of law and order would be a threat to our civilization, don't you?

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Its unbelievable how short a memory people have. We seem to think these militants popped out of thin air to take away our freedom. A laughable state of affairs when most of us don't really even know where our enemy 'came from', and why they fight. I guess thats the historian's job...

They have stated why they fight many many times. I don't think it's a big secret.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by White Doors

They have stated why they fight many many times. I don't think it's a big secret.

We all hear different things. I want to know what you hear.

I know I believe they fight because of Western/American involvement in the region, culminating in the stationing of US troops in Saudi Arabia during Gulf War I (which Bin Laden stated on numerous occasions), but with roots also extending to Israel, Oil, and Western support for dictatorships (... hello Saudi?).

I want to know why you believe they fight.

[White Doors]

Yes, Saudi Arabia was mentioned. The bases have since been removed. Israel is another. Also, they want to re-occupy Spain as that is a traditional muslim land in their eyes. They are looking for an excuse to explain islamic decline in my opinion.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Yes, Saudi Arabia was mentioned. The bases have since been removed. Israel is another. Also, they want to re-occupy Spain as that is a traditional muslim land in their eyes. They are looking for an excuse to explain islamic decline in my opinion.

Hmm... have not heard that they wanted to re-conquer Spain...

I think if I were afraid of the re-emergence of the Muslim Empire stretching from Valencia to Jakarta I'd be the one wearing tinfoil on my head. Its just not going to happen. The West has a commercial, cultural, economic, and military lead on these ragtag rebels that is unparalleled.

If people need to be afraid of something, why not pick China or Russia? At least these states have the ability to take us on.