The Calgary Flames 2015-2016 Training Camp Thread

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Conroy4Mayor

Raymond = this year's Setoguchi
Engelland = this year's O'Brien
Bollig = this year's McGrattan

It's not that they're bad. They're just below average. Why keep below average players on your team? Treveling would do well to recognize this, waive them all, and replace them with guys that can think and play the game at a higher level.

What exactly have you been watching to draw those conclusions, especially on the last two. Bollig has looked good in pre season and was dynamite in the playoffs last year. Engelland has been average admittedly so far this pre season, but far from being outplayed by those competing for his job, and he was awesome in the playoffs and the back half of last season.

Looks to me like you simply went through the roster and looked for any player over 25 not named Gio and Hudler and started drawing wild unfounded conclusions.

[420since1974]

Exactly Cleveland.

There is a segment of the Flames fan-base that continually want to trade away most of the veterans to see "shiny new toys" every season.

I'd say that they had their fair share of new toys last season.
Patience please.
Continuing to develop players in the AHL does not hurt the team, but the reverse surely would (see Edmonton).
Trevling knows what he has now and will move vets as necessary when he can.

[Conroy4Mayor]

Originally Posted by 420since1974

Exactly Cleveland.

There is a segment of the Flames fan-base that continually want to trade away most of the veterans to see "shiny new toys" every season.

I'd say that they had their fair share of new toys last season.
Patience please.
Continuing to develop players in the AHL does not hurt the team, but the reverse surely would (see Edmonton).
Trevling knows what he has now and will move vets as necessary when he can.

Why is there a need to put down other posters on this board?

The players I had in mind as their replacements are Byron, Wilson and Shore... not exactly shiny new toys.

The Flames were not good enough to beat Anaheim last spring. I just happen to think we can do better, which means bringing a better roster next time around. Having Gio healthy will not be enough to make us an elite team. We also need to replace underperformers with better players. Putting a below average defenceman (Engelland) on the ice with a Norris candidate defenceman (Brodie) does not make the below average defenceman better. It just masks his deficiencies.

[Conroy4Mayor]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

What exactly have you been watching to draw those conclusions, especially on the last two. Bollig has looked good in pre season and was dynamite in the playoffs last year. Engelland has been average admittedly so far this pre season, but far from being outplayed by those competing for his job, and he was awesome in the playoffs and the back half of last season.

Looks to me like you simply went through the roster and looked for any player over 25 not named Gio and Hudler and started drawing wild unfounded conclusions.

We must have been watching different games. The players that I thought were "dynamite" and "awesome" were not Bollig and Engelland, but rather Gaudreau and Ferland... last year's shiny new toys.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Conroy4Mayor

Why is there a need to put down other posters on this board?

The players I had in mind as their replacements are Byron, Wilson and Shore... not exactly shiny new toys.

The Flames were not good enough to beat Anaheim last spring. I just happen to think we can do better, which means bringing a better roster next time around. Having Gio healthy will not be enough to make us an elite team. We also need to replace underperformers with better players. Putting a below average defenceman (Engelland) on the ice with a Norris candidate defenceman (Brodie) does not make the below average defenceman better. It just masks his deficiencies.

Wilson? That makes no sense. Wilson has been worse than Engelland this preseason, has hardly played at all in the last 3 years (44 games total) and his skating has suffered due to the injuries. At absolute best Wilson would be a lesser player than Engelland is now.

As for Bollig has has a role on this team and until someone else can step into that role (hint: it won't be Byron or Shore), he is going absolutely nowhere. He may not play every night, but he is an important player when we play teams like LA and Anaheim.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Looks to me like you simply went through the roster and looked for any player over 25 not named Gio and Hudler and started drawing wild unfounded conclusions.

No, it's the fad among hockey fans these days, any hockey player that is tough is seen as a useless slow plug with negative value.

[Vinny01]

Where I tend to agree with Conroy4mayor is the fact we have some big money tied up in fringe players that are unfortunately still signed beyond this season. Engellend/Smid is $6.4M on the cap for the Flames 6/7. That doesn't hurt so bad when your number 1 is making $4M and your number 4 is making $2.6M but let's not forget our number 5 is making $5.25M. Next year Gio jumps up to $6.75M and of we can keep Russell he moves up to likely $4.5M. On the meantime you have kids like Wotherspoon, Kulak, Morrison that look fairly close and are on ELC's.

The same up front. Raymond is making $3.15M and looks like a 14th forward. The Flames have one of the cheapest first lines in hockey but all 3 are free agents next year. Having Raymond making this money, and even Stajan making his $3+M moving forward could squeeze out a great player like Hudler or make it hard for Treliving to add another top 6 via free agency or trade.

This is the result of a rebuild speeding up quicker than anticipated. Looking at the summer of 2017 there is huge money coming off the books but this coming summer there are more raises and spots to fill than cap space to go around if the cap continues to stick where it is

[Itse]

Hartley has mentioned that Bollig is going to see increased responsibilities.

[Conroy4Mayor]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

No, it's the fad among hockey fans these days, any hockey player that is tough is seen as a useless slow plug with negative value.

The Stanley Cup winners last year had a team total of just 15 fighting majors over the entire season, led by a guy that is just 5'11" (Dan Carcillo - 6 fights). You don't need to big and slow to be tough.

However, being big and slow can get in the way of contributing to winning hockey games. Bollig had a shooting percentage of 1.5% last year and just 3.5% over his career. You should check out Mike Fail's post on Bollig's 2014-15 season for some other enlightening stats. The guy has a "role", but not a useful one.

[Cheerio]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

No, it's the fad among hockey fans these days, any hockey player that is tough is seen as a useless slow plug with negative value.

No, the trend is that "tough" players have lost almost all of their value and are now liabilities on the ice. Defenders have to play differently since the 2004 lockout, gone are the goons who relied on grabbing and hooking like Darian Hatcher and in are the smart defenders with good sticks who play like Nicklas Lidstrom. Because of this, defence men like Derryk Engelland who are slow and bad are valued a lot lower than they would be pre-lockout.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Wilson? That makes no sense. Wilson has been worse than Engelland this preseason, has hardly played at all in the last 3 years (44 games total) and his skating has suffered due to the injuries. At absolute best Wilson would be a lesser player than Engelland is now.

As for Bollig has has a role on this team and until someone else can step into that role (hint: it won't be Byron or Shore), he is going absolutely nowhere. He may not play every night, but he is an important player when we play teams like LA and Anaheim.

Important in what way, exactly? Are the Kings going to be on the worst behavior and not say thank you when he's not on the ice? Bollig stops nothing from happening. Regehr had no problem trying to break Hudler's ribs with Bollig on the bench.

The flames are a worse hockey team by virtually every metric with him on they ice and bumping other options off the roster. That role you speak of is unnecessary now. We've got better players.

[Conroy4Mayor]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

What exactly have you been watching to draw those conclusions, especially on the last two. Bollig has looked good in pre season and was dynamite in the playoffs last year. Engelland has been average admittedly so far this pre season, but far from being outplayed by those competing for his job, and he was awesome in the playoffs and the back half of last season.

Looks to me like you simply went through the roster and looked for any player over 25 not named Gio and Hudler and started drawing wild unfounded conclusions.

Unfounded?

1. Deryk Engelland had the easiest zone starts on the team
2. Deryk Engelland had the team worst possession numbers
3. Deryk Engelland was in the bottom 20% of the league in goals against per 60 minutes
4. Deryk Engelland caused the most icings on the team

[Flames89]

I am still a fan of Engelland. We need a mean stay at home defenceman.

[Conroy4Mayor]

[QUOTE=Flames89;5439650]I am still a fan of Engelland. We need a mean stay at home defenceman.

Only if you want the team to win fights.

If you want the team to win games, we need defencemen that do not turn the puck over and that can make breakout passes.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Conroy4Mayor

Only if you want the team to win fights.

If you want the team to win games, we need defencemen that do not turn the puck over and that can make breakout passes.

Our bottom pairing does not need to make breakout passes and be great defensively.

I don't understand how some fans think the Flames can ice 6 elite defensemen. This is the cap era, it's not possible.

I'm so sick and tired of this Engelland discussion. Flames fans have been spoiled with elite defensemen and seem to be taking them for granted. I'd much rather have the best top-4 in the league than the best bottom pairing.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Conroy4Mayor

Unfounded?

1. Deryk Engelland had the easiest zone starts on the team
2. Deryk Engelland had the team worst possession numbers
3. Deryk Engelland was in the bottom 20% of the league in goals against per 60 minutes
4. Deryk Engelland caused the most icings on the team

Which is exactly what you would expect out of a teams #6/7 defenseman. Compare this to other teams #6 defenseman and I guarantee similar results. They are on the ice so your top-4 can get a breather, not to score goals. They don't have to win the game for you, just not lose it. And guess what. We made the playoffs with Engelland as our #4.

[Imported_Aussie]

Engelland has a role - to be able to clear the crease and handle bigger players. Ideally, there would be more size throughout the defence corps, especially when you consider the teams in the Pacific division, but the Flames key defenceman are not big guys. Enter Hamilton - he has size, but it remains to be seen how he will use it against bigger forwards out west. He won't be a bruiser, but if he can use his size and reach to stop big forwards running roughshod, then Engelland has less use and likely sees less ice, maybe even into the pressbox. If Smid recovers to be top 6 worthy, he could replace Engelland, but then it is like for like, not much of an upgrade, and costing more $$ too.

Then you look at the players in the system, Nakladal has some size, but not experienced on north american ice, nor has he shown a lot of physicality like Engelland brings. Wotherspoon is similarly sized to Engelland, but it by no means a physical guy. Morrison is similar to Wotherspoon, but with a better shot. Sieloff is a hitter, but smaller - more of an open ice/on the boards checker. Kanzig has size, but it remains to be seen if he develops into a guy who can take a shift in the NHL, and that may not happen until after Engelland's contract is up anyway.

Long story short, until the Flames are equipped to handle big forwards without a bruiser in the defence corps, Engelland will have a role to play, and at least one of Engelland/Smid will need to be on the roster. Add to this how the coach and GM value his leadership in the room, he seems to be entrenched.

And to anyone who feels Wilson could be signed to replace Engelland - any team the Flames would want to trade Engelland to, if they felt the same way, would be signing Wilson right now for $2M less than Engelland makes. Wilson is a big question mark until he has more injury free time, and signing him and shipping out Engelland would be a risk, especially with Smid's recovery being another big question mark. If Treliving has a buyer for Engelland and fancies a gamble, he could go for this, but he has shown he values depth and is less inclined to gamble, especially when he doesn't need to move this contract yet.

Maybe by next season Engelland will go - one season left is tradeable, and if the team is fully restocked on D, there will be less worry about depth behind Engelland.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Conroy4Mayor

Unfounded?

1. Deryk Engelland had the easiest zone starts on the team
2. Deryk Engelland had the team worst possession numbers
3. Deryk Engelland was in the bottom 20% of the league in goals against per 60 minutes
4. Deryk Engelland caused the most icings on the team

That's pretty much par for the course for any bottom pairing defenseman. Engelland is a fairly average one, but I would also disagree that there are any better options among the vying candidates right now.

[jaikorven]

Originally Posted by Imported_Aussie

Engelland has a role - to be able to clear the crease and handle bigger players. Ideally, there would be more size throughout the defence corps, especially when you consider the teams in the Pacific division, but the Flames key defenceman are not big guys. Enter Hamilton - he has size, but it remains to be seen how he will use it against bigger forwards out west. He won't be a bruiser, but if he can use his size and reach to stop big forwards running roughshod, then Engelland has less use and likely sees less ice, maybe even into the pressbox. If Smid recovers to be top 6 worthy, he could replace Engelland, but then it is like for like, not much of an upgrade, and costing more $$ too.

Then you look at the players in the system, Nakladal has some size, but not experienced on north american ice, nor has he shown a lot of physicality like Engelland brings. Wotherspoon is similarly sized to Engelland, but it by no means a physical guy. Morrison is similar to Wotherspoon, but with a better shot. Sieloff is a hitter, but smaller - more of an open ice/on the boards checker. Kanzig has size, but it remains to be seen if he develops into a guy who can take a shift in the NHL, and that may not happen until after Engelland's contract is up anyway.

Long story short, until the Flames are equipped to handle big forwards without a bruiser in the defence corps, Engelland will have a role to play, and at least one of Engelland/Smid will need to be on the roster. Add to this how the coach and GM value his leadership in the room, he seems to be entrenched.

And to anyone who feels Wilson could be signed to replace Engelland - any team the Flames would want to trade Engelland to, if they felt the same way, would be signing Wilson right now for $2M less than Engelland makes. Wilson is a big question mark until he has more injury free time, and signing him and shipping out Engelland would be a risk, especially with Smid's recovery being another big question mark. If Treliving has a buyer for Engelland and fancies a gamble, he could go for this, but he has shown he values depth and is less inclined to gamble, especially when he doesn't need to move this contract yet.

Maybe by next season Engelland will go - one season left is tradeable, and if the team is fully restocked on D, there will be less worry about depth behind Engelland.

Very good thoughts. Thank you. I tend to agree with everything you wrote.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Nobody is asking for 6 elite defencemen. We just feel engelland is not very good even as a 6th dman. The reality is he will have to move up in the lineup due to injuries. I don't like how people think because we made e playoffs with him as our 4th dman means he's a good 6th dman for that cap hit. He is quite physical but he doesn't protect anybody out there. Nobody is going to be prevented from doing something by bollig or engelland. Especially not the Kings.

Also he is a burden on whoever he plays with he can't make simple passes and his skating is the worst of the d core. I think we need to get rid of bollig engelland and Raymond. They aren't actually contributing much sadly. Their spots could be taken by younger players like shore, klimchuk, Poirier and granny. I hope granlund makes the team this year and we at least ship out Raymond!

We need to focus on contracts that we could do without. We have a lot of key signings coming up in the near future. I'd like us to make space and keep Hudler and russell who are 2 key players for us imo, we can't afford to not have enough cap when it comes time to pay those 2, but obviously our young guns Come first.


Any of the following:
Stajan, Jones, Raymond, engelland, smid, bollig, hiller/ramo and potentially widemans contracts could be gone in the next 2 seasons.