Saudi Arabia stampede

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by polak

Except you wouldn't allow that sort of event in North America.

Occupancy limits are a crazy thing.

All Muslims must make a pilgrimage to Mecca at some point in their lives if they are able to fund it. That's 1.6 billion people. As the country where Mecca is located, Saudi Arabia has an enormous responsibility, and gains enormous prestige, as the host of the pilgrimage. The Hajj cannot be cancelled.

There are limits and quotas on the number of people allowed to attend, by nationality (approx. 0.1% of the population of each Muslim country in any given year). And those quotas anger and frustrate Muslims around the world. Why wouldn't it? They have a spiritual obligation to attend if they can. Even then, about 3.2 million people per year arrive in Saudi Arabia for the Hajj. The Grand Mosque in Mecca has been expand to have a capacity of 2.2 million people. That's 36x the number of people who were in attendance at the opening ceremonies to the Summer Olympics in London.

It's basically like hosting an event five times the size of the summer Olympics in a small city every single year.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Saudi Health minister says it was "God's will" ...............

Makes this god fellow sound like kind of a jerk to let that happen considering they were all going to fight Satan for him.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by polak

Limit the number of pilgrims allowed to enter the holy site by implementing some sort of lottery system for access.

Yes, Yes, I get it, "Religion!". Doesn't excuse the lack of respect for life. 700 people just died and they're not going to cancel it. That should tell you something.

700!

I can give you approximately 8.5 billion reasons why the Saudi's won't cancel it.

[polak]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

All Muslims must make a pilgrimage to Mecca at some point in their lives if they are able to fund it. That's 1.6 billion people. As the country where Mecca is located, Saudi Arabia has an enormous responsibility, and gains enormous prestige, as the host of the pilgrimage. The Hajj cannot be cancelled.

There are limits and quotas on the number of people allowed to attend, by nationality (approx. 0.1% of the population of each Muslim country in any given year). And those quotas anger and frustrate Muslims around the world. Why wouldn't it? They have a spiritual obligation to attend if they can. Even then, about 3.2 million people per year arrive in Saudi Arabia for the Hajj. The Grand Mosque in Mecca has been expand to have a capacity of 2.2 million people. That's 36x the number of people who were in attendance at the opening ceremonies to the Summer Olympics in London.

It's basically like hosting an event five times the size of the summer Olympics in a small city every single year.

I don't blame Saudi Arabia for having a difficult time trying to cope with all of these people on a yearly basis.

I have a problem with religious people thinking their "spiritual obligation" outweighs the safety of their fellow man. Clearly the quotas are not strict enough.

Curious, does the muslim religion have some sort of governing body similar to the Vatican? Someone that could address the logistical and safety issues regarding this pilgrimage and maybe "alter" the requirements?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Saudi Health minister says it was "God's will" ...............

Some notable incidents include:

July 2, 1990 : A stampede inside a pedestrian tunnel (Al-Ma'aisim tunnel) leading out from Mecca towards Mina and the Plains of Arafat led to the deaths of 1,426 pilgrims, many of them of Malaysian, Indonesian and Pakistani origin.

May 23, 1994 : A stampede killed at least 270 pilgrims at the stoning of the Devil ritual.

April 9, 1998: at least 118 pilgrims were trampled to death and 180 injured in an incident on Jamarat Bridge.

March 5, 2001: 35 pilgrims were trampled to death in a stampede during the stoning of the Devil ritual.

February 11, 2003: The stoning of the Devil ritual claimed 14 pilgrims' lives.

February 1, 2004: 251 pilgrims were killed and another 244 injured in a stampede during the stoning ritual in Mina.

January 12, 2006: A stampede during the stoning of the Devil on the last day of the Hajj in Mina killed at least 346 pilgrims and injured at least 289 more. The incident occurred shortly after 13:00 local time, when a busload of travellers arrived together at the eastern access ramps to the Jamarat Bridge. This caused pilgrims to trip, rapidly resulting in a lethal stampede. An estimated two million people were performing the ritual at the time.
September 24, 2015: More than 700 pilgrims were killed and another 800 injured during a stampede in the 2015 Hajj

September 23, 2015: Stampede kills 717 pilgrims on 3rd day of the stoning of the Devil ritual.

Gods will my ass, how stupid can this minister be?, it's obviously the work of the devil.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by polak

Curious, does the muslim religion have some sort of governing body similar to the Vatican? Someone that could address the logistical and safety issues regarding this pilgrimage and maybe "alter" the requirements?

LOL, No they don't, if they did batass crazy groups like ISIS or al qaeda likely wouldn't exist.

[JD]

Regarding the "God's will" thing, you have to understand that's just a common phrase and a way of making sense of a tragedy. They don't say it in a way that God is a spiteful murderous deity that sometimes strikes death like this. If you ever set foot in the Middle East, the first Arabic term you'll probably learn is "insh'allah" which means "if God wills it". People say it for EVERYTHING.

"Can you send me those TPS Reports first thing in the morning, Ahmed?"

"Yes Mr. JD, Insh'allah!"

At first it can be frustrating that they seemingly leave something that is clearly in their own hands to God, but you soon learn it's not really meant that way. It's more of a respect to God than a leaving everything in God's hands thing.

As for this tragedy, one of my Pakistani employees is there this year. Still haven't heard from him. These people wait their whole lives for a chance to attend. They go, fully knowing that things like this regularly occur. It's part of the risk they are willing to take to uphold their values. But in addition to that, I think it's just a bragging right. These guys love telling everyone they know that they're going to do the Hajj this year.

I kinda liken it to if I had tickets to the Super Bowl. A once-in-a-lifetime event that all my buddies wish they were doing. Yeah, the Super Bowl lacks the inherent danger, but really, if 700 people out of 2,000,000 die, I'll probably be okay! I'd probably still go.

[Oil Stain]

According to wikipedia, they have changed some of the requirements of Hajj to accommodate the insane amount of people that attend this ritual.

"To accommodate large numbers of people, many of the rituals have become more symbolic; for example, it is no longer necessary to kiss the Black Stone; instead, pilgrims may point at it on each circuit around the Kaaba. Also, the large pillars used in the pebble throwing were changed to long walls with basins below to catch the stones for safety reasons in 2004.[52][53] Another example is that the animal slaughter can now be done by appointing someone else to do it.[38][page needed]"

You can do this ritual at other times of the year, but it is considered a lesser achievement.

"Pilgrims can also go to Mecca to perform the rituals at other times of the year. This is sometimes called the "lesser pilgrimage", or Umrah. However, even if they choose to perform the Umrah, they are still obligated to perform the Hajj at some other point in their lifetime if they have the means to do so."

The obvious solution here is to change the requirements of Hajj to allow pilgrims to perform the Hajj at any time of the year. That way they might have 15,000,000 people performing the ritual, but they will be more dispersed throughout the year and it wouldn't be such a logistical nightmare.

They have changed requirements in the past, so there is precedent.

[polak]

Cool that's what I was wondering.

Ah Religious people. I'll never understand you.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

According to wikipedia, they have changed some of the requirements of Hajj to accommodate the insane amount of people that attend this ritual.

"To accommodate large numbers of people, many of the rituals have become more symbolic; for example, it is no longer necessary to kiss the Black Stone; instead, pilgrims may point at it on each circuit around the Kaaba. Also, the large pillars used in the pebble throwing were changed to long walls with basins below to catch the stones for safety reasons in 2004.[52][53] Another example is that the animal slaughter can now be done by appointing someone else to do it.[38][page needed]"

You can do this ritual at other times of the year, but it is considered a lesser achievement.

"Pilgrims can also go to Mecca to perform the rituals at other times of the year. This is sometimes called the "lesser pilgrimage", or Umrah. However, even if they choose to perform the Umrah, they are still obligated to perform the Hajj at some other point in their lifetime if they have the means to do so."

The obvious solution here is to change the requirements of Hajj to allow pilgrims to perform the Hajj at any time of the year. That way they might have 15,000,000 people performing the ritual, but they will be more dispersed throughout the year and it wouldn't be such a logistical nightmare.

They have changed requirements in the past, so there is precedent.

I'm glad God is so accommodating

[T@T]

Originally Posted by JD

Regarding the "God's will" thing, you have to understand that's just a common phrase and a way of making sense of a tragedy. They don't say it in a way that God is a spiteful murderous deity that sometimes strikes death like this. If you ever set foot in the Middle East, the first Arabic term you'll probably learn is "insh'allah" which means "if God wills it". People say it for EVERYTHING.

Yes and they say it over loudspeakers just before they publicly chop off someones head for something like sorcery too.

Again, "Gods will" my ass.

FYI, If there was a "GOD" indeed he would be known as a spiteful murderous deity, thankfully God is just imaginary.