Federal Election Called for Oct 19, 2015

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by username

The problem is, no one out East wants to take any accountability for Canada's pollution issues. It's easier for the NDP to say it's Alberta's fault, stop their oil sands development and then you can vote for us! We solve our pollution issue and no one out east is directly impacted.

Ok then. Ontario energy costs have basically doubled since the province started eliminating coal as a power source. Meanwhile Alberta is rocking very low energy rates and burning coal at a higher rate than any other province. We've been impacted a ton to reduce our greenhouse gases.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If you are in a close riding, and your vote can actually make a difference, I don't really understand the point in voting for the guy in 3rd or 4th just to throw a number in their column, when you instead could have replaced the guy you really dislike.

.

But then you just end up with a hyper-partisan 2 party system like the States. You have to think long team. If no one ever voted for the NDP because they were always a distant 3rd to the Liberals and Conservatives, the party would have never grown to be in the position to possibly form a government in 2015 and the Greens would never be in a position to even have seats in parliament. Not saying that I want them to win, but choice is a good thing in a democracy. Putting numbers in their column is a way to at least keep the fight in them to improve every election.

You have to think long term. Momentum is built over several elections.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

But then you just end up with a hyper-partisan 2 party system like the States. You have to think long team. If no one ever voted for the NDP because they were always a distant 3rd to the Liberals and Conservatives, the party would have never grown to be in the position to possibly form a government in 2015 and the Greens would never be in a position to even have seats in parliament. Not saying that I want them to win, but choice is a good thing in a democracy. Putting numbers in their column is a way to at least keep the fight in them to improve every election.

You have to think long term. Momentum is built over several elections.

That's fine if you are in a riding where it isn't even close, and in the past I've done it often. And I don't think I can handle another Harper majority....even if you promise me in the "long term" it will be good.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Aside from the very legitimate reasons that username posted, there was already discussion about this earlier in this thread: Two of the major factors for our higher than average emissions was the fact that we live in ridiculous homes, drive a lot more than other countries in similar geographic and climate situations like Russia.

I would vote for a party if one came out tomorrow and proposed a policy that levied an environmental tax on homes for every sq. ft above 1000. Increase fuel taxes by another 20-30c/L to discourage driving.

Tax Albertans for being on coal power and incentivize the change towards NG or nuclear.

My main issue with this is that the oilsands (and O&G) is being asked to shoulder 100% of the reduction of emissions with all the statements coming out (oil needs to stay in the ground etc.). What about the everyday Canadian driving a ridiculous truck, or living in a 3500 sq ft home that needs to be heated? That should be punished as much as the oilsands. What about those dirty refineries and factories out east? Same deal.

Edit: Previous discussion + stats around post #774. Here's an article about why I don't agree with the NDP environmental policy from a month ago. http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...-in-the-ground

OK, but why not tax the footprint then?
I live in one of those 'ridiculous mansions' you refer to.
We fairly recently spent significant resources (and I do mean significant) upgrading every single thing in our home to increase energy efficiency. July just past marked a year since everything was done, and we were thrilled to have the entire cost for all energy consumed in the operation of our home come in at just over $1800 for the previous year. I know plenty of people who spend more just on heating, nevermind all energy requirements.
I'm all for taxing the footprint (or even usage if that's more fair - as here in Quebec almost all energy comes from renewable sources), but just arbitrarily assigning a tax on sq ft doesn't address the issue.

[Poster]

anyone who actually wants an NDP government really needs to get their head checked.

I am no Harper lover and cant stand the Liberals due to the hack Jean Cretien but there is nothing that the NDP offers that is good for Canadian taxpayers.

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Ok then. Ontario energy costs have basically doubled since the province started eliminating coal as a power source. Meanwhile Alberta is rocking very low energy rates and burning coal at a higher rate than any other province. We've been impacted a ton to reduce our greenhouse gases.

Was it worth it?

Surely someone will chime in to tell me why I'm wrong, but do you wonder if the increased electricity costs have just shifted more firms' manufacturing plants to Mexico, where they are going to produce that GHG that we supposedly saved anyways? To me it seems like the only actual change was job loss, and the related government revenue etc.

[username]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Ok then. Ontario energy costs have basically doubled since the province started eliminating coal as a power source. Meanwhile Alberta is rocking very low energy rates and burning coal at a higher rate than any other province. We've been impacted a ton to reduce our greenhouse gases.

Agreed. The issue is this: would the folks in Ontario vote for a party that says they are going to tax each family on the square footage of their home and the number of km's put on a car or would they rather vote for the party that says we are going to stop oil sands development in Alberta?

Which would you vote for? The option that's better for Canada is to "punish" the whole country but that doesn't play well in politics. Rather, let's punish Alberta, who is approx. 8% of our total population and say we've done what we can to reduce CO2 emissions without solving the real problem which is consumption.

[Slava]

I went to a Justin Trudeau event yesterday where he made his announcement and took questions from reporters. I was actually quite impressed. Even policy aside, he is quite polished and prepared. The reporters weren't exactly lobbing softballs either, but were questioning things with some rigor. To me I came away thinking that the rise in the polls for the Liberals over the last few weeks is the real thing. First of all the place was packed, and second, like I say he was really prepared and answered questions very well.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Poster

anyone who actually wants an NDP government really needs to get their head checked.

I am no Harper lover and cant stand the Liberals due to the hack Jean Cretien

Yea thanks for your extremely well thought out and content rich post. You can say the same about Harper/CPC (the hack part) at this point... We are now dealing with a more scandals, charged and fined party members in recent Canadian history. We have now more than 18 individual CPC members charged, jailed or fined for improper and criminal behaviour. So Harper is running on a campaign of leadership, what kind of leadership has be brought just to his own party? Take a look at the list at the bottom.

Either Harper is the most incompetent leader on the face of the planet and knew absolutely nothing about what is going on in his own party right under his nose (which would make him a horrible leader), or the party is corrupt in and of itself and Harper either encouraged or turned a blind eye to some of the more egregious acts by his staff/underlings. At lot of these charged members Harper had a personal hand in appointing. At what point do you consider the tree responsible for the rotten fruit? And the more important question is do you trust the nuts running the nuthouse to reform the crazies?

I really wish I was making this list up.

Dismissed MPs and RCMP fined/criminal charges
Don Meredith - Senator - Underaged girl scandal
Maxime Bernier - Leaks classified information to girlfriend
Helena Guergis - Secretary of state for foreign affairs and international trade - Gross misconduct
Marc Mayrand - Cheif electoral officer - Elections scandal (resulting on raid on Conservative party headquarters)
Doug Finley - Campaign director - In and Out campaign finance impropriety - Fined
Irving Gerstein - former national party director - In and Out - bad campaign financing - charged
Michael Donison - party executive director - In and Out - bad campaign financing - charged
Michael Fortier - Senator - improper contracts and conflict of interest
Michael Sona - Staffer - criminal charges for elections fraud
Mike Duffy - Senator - Expense scandal (bribery, fraud, breach of trust)
Pamela Wallin - Senator - Expense scandal (bribery, fraud, breach of trust)
Patrick Brazeau - Senator - Expense scandal (bribery, fraud, breach of trust) - Also assault and cocaine
Bruce Carson - Party Adviser and friend of Harper - Illegal lobbying & fraud
Peter Penashue - Campaign Agent - Illegal campaign contributions
Dean Del Mastro - Conservative Ethics Spokesperson - election overspending and coverup - jailed and he was responsible for ethics!
Garth Turner - Expelled from Tory caucus for undisclosed confidentiality violation
Dimitri Soudas - Executive director - Fired, tried to interfere with wifes nomination

Ongoing
John Baird - Foreign affairs Minister - alleged (currently unsubstantiated) child porn involvement/underage boys, visiting isreali brothel, illegal involvement with Barrick Gold

Dismissed Candidates from elections
Saulie Zajdel - Bribery
Tim Dutaud - Faking sexual acts in videos, mocking mentally handicapped people
Jerry Bance - Pissed in clients coffee
Blair Dale - Racist/Sexist remarks

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

but just arbitrarily assigning a tax on sq ft doesn't address the issue.

Doesn't it? Sure it may not be a direct address but if carbon output is created by energy consumption and if big homes take more energy to heat then by extension they produce more carbon. Tax the big homes more and people have less incentive to buy them (and developers less incentive to build them over smaller units due to lower demand).

I mean from an economic perspective if you want to effect change then what you want to do is increase incentives on what you want and disincentives on what you don't.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by puckedoff

Was it worth it?

Surely someone will chime in to tell me why I'm wrong, but do you wonder if the increased electricity costs have just shifted more firms' manufacturing plants to Mexico, where they are going to produce that GHG that we supposedly saved anyways? To me it seems like the only actual change was job loss, and the related government revenue etc.

I don't know. Ontario lost a lot of manufacturing jobs but I suspect a lot of that was due to wages rather than energy costs but I don't doubt it contributed.

The unemployment rate is basically at the same rate as it was during the Coal power so the jobs have shifted. Are people paid less? I don't know.

I can't speak for everyone given I didn't lose my job or get pushed into poverty but in my comfortable spot - I'm glad the change was made. We used to have tons of smog warnings but haven't had any in the past few years. It appears to at least made some impact.

[killer_carlson]

It isn't just Conservatives who were caught by the Senate or had candidates removed.

[peter12]

The John Baird issue still remains to unfold.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I don't know. Ontario lost a lot of manufacturing jobs but I suspect a lot of that was due to wages rather than energy costs but I don't doubt it contributed.

The unemployment rate is basically at the same rate as it was during the Coal power so the jobs have shifted. Are people paid less? I don't know.

I can't speak for everyone given I didn't lose my job or get pushed into poverty but in my comfortable spot - I'm glad the change was made. We used to have tons of smog warnings but haven't had any in the past few years. It appears to at least made some impact.

Energy costs are a huge reason why manufacturing was decimated in Ontario. Electricity costs in Ontario are like 5 times higher than in the States. It's been really prohibitive. Oil prices during the boom didn't help either.

I was on another discussion board and a member from Alabama swore that I was lying that we pay on average between 11 cents and 13 cents per kilowatt hour compared to their 2.5 cents or whatever it was. It's crazy considering that Ontario is a net exporter of electricity and we buy it back from the States for more than we sell it to them for.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle14854752/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle17560172/

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/05/16...y-energy-costs

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by peter12

The John Baird issue still remains to unfold.

What is this John Baird issue? The vague threat from Anonymous in July?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Parallex

What is this John Baird issue? The vague threat from Anonymous in July?

Yes, those allegations, which at this point have really only proved to be a smear.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yes, those allegations, which at this point have really only proved to be a smear.

They apparently dumped a bunch of documents to the press yesterday for review but no one has picked it up yet so we have no idea how much of that any of that is even remotely real at this point.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

OK, but why not tax the footprint then?
I live in one of those 'ridiculous mansions' you refer to.
We fairly recently spent significant resources (and I do mean significant) upgrading every single thing in our home to increase energy efficiency. July just past marked a year since everything was done, and we were thrilled to have the entire cost for all energy consumed in the operation of our home come in at just over $1800 for the previous year. I know plenty of people who spend more just on heating, nevermind all energy requirements.
I'm all for taxing the footprint (or even usage if that's more fair - as here in Quebec almost all energy comes from renewable sources), but just arbitrarily assigning a tax on sq ft doesn't address the issue.

I was just throwing out a wildly hyperbolic tax policy that would be incredibly unpopular, but would be very effective in helping the environment just to illustrate the sacrifice that Makarov suggested that we should be willing to take on. Large homes are a significant problem in this. A home that has the improvements that you made, but is half the size would have a much lower carbon footprint.

Taxation is basically the reverse of tax credits in that you're trying to disincentivize a certain behavior. I think a more measured approach would be both on square footage (disincentivizing large homes in general), and usage (incentivizing your improvements, and personal responsibility), and obviously not the crazy $10 level.

I guess my overall point is that it's easy to suggest taxes on other people (the "rich", corporations, "eliminating loopholes" or whatever rhetoric). But to suggest self-sacrifice and broad based tax increases that are the most effective means is a much trickier issue.

[Poster]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Yea thanks for your extremely well thought out and content rich post. 

yes, I am no fan of Harper myself but the NDP policy platform stinks and would destroy Alberta, not too mention embarrass Canada across the globe.

although I doubt we could be more embarrassed than when Jean Chretien was lining the pockets of his cronies and representing Canadians as the most corrupt leader in the history of Canadian politics.

JC should be in jail but I suppose that's for another thread.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Poster

yes, I am no fan of Harper myself but the NDP policy platform stinks and would destroy Alberta, not too mention embarrass Canada across the globe.

although I doubt we could be more embarrassed than when Jean Chretien was lining the pockets of his cronies and representing Canadians as the most corrupt leader in the history of Canadian politics.

JC should be in jail but I suppose that's for another thread.

That's a bold bold statement, considering who is in charge now....