Is Brodie now a 3rd pairing DMan?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Also: Yikes Wideman.

No kidding.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Again, I guess Marc Methot is as good as Gio, right? Because the quadrant tells me so.

At DEFENSE? Methot is one of the best defensive defenseman in the NHL and makes Erik Karlsson a Norris winner. You don't need charts to see that.

That is a chart outline defensive aptitude, not offensive aptitude.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Man is Wideman underrated around here... The guy will be a fixture on the top PP unit...

So which of Gio or Hamilton do you expect to not be on the top PP unit?

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

At DEFENSE? Methot is one of the best defensive defenseman in the NHL and makes Erik Karlsson a Norris winner. You don't need charts to see that.

That is a chart outline defensive aptitude, not offensive aptitude.

Karlsson won the Norris because he scores 70+ pts as a defender. Not to take anything away from Methot, but everyone knows total points in the biggest slice of the pie when it comes to determining who wins the Norris.

I didn't see the title on that chart showing it was only relating to defensive aptitude, so my bad on that. But now that I look at it again, I still don't buy it. According to that, Mike Green is a better defensively then Chara? BS. Pietrangelo is worse defensively then Phaneuf. Is that what I'm seeing? Common. I'm not an advanced stat guy, so maybe it needs to be explained to me what exactly I'm seeing.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So which of Gio or Hamilton do you expect to not be on the top PP unit?

I have no idea. I could see Hamilton going to the 2nd unit. If memory serves me correctly, Gio and Wideman were together quite a bit before Gio went down on the 1st unit. All I know is that Dennis Wideman was tied for 3rd overall in power play points leader in the entire NHL as a defenceman. He can legit QB a PP and has one of the hardest shots in the NHL. I don't see why there is such a calling for him to move to the 2nd unit. Maybe Hartley sees things differently. But IMO he is very well used on the 1st unit.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

According to that, Mike Green is a better defensively then Chara? BS. Pietrangelo is worse defensively then Phaneuf. Is that what I'm seeing? Common. I'm not an advanced stat guy, so maybe it needs to be explained to me what exactly I'm seeing.

First of all, That includes Chara last season, who was playing on one knee. I'm sure if you used a 2011-2013 Sample Chara would be better. Regardless it tells you that Chara is one of the best players in the NHL at limiting the highest quality types of shots. He might not be as far out as Mike Green, but he's also facing better top line players which is something that's not on that chart but can be observed by looking at supplementary stats or just watching the game. Mike Green is a middle pairing defenseman who's very strong in that role. Dennis Wideman is a middle pairing defenseman who is not so great in that role. Trading Dennis Wideman for Mike Green would be a no-brainer. Trading a 38 year old Chara for a prime Mike Green would probably be a smart trade, too.

Second, those are cold hard statistics for shots against in the slot and in the crease. If they disagree with your beliefs, there's nothing I or anyone can do about it. But you see they DO tell you Giordano/Brodie are two of the best players in the NHL at limiting high quality shots on goal. Does that also disagree with your beliefs? Look up cognitive bias.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

First of all, That includes Chara last season, who was playing on one knee. I'm sure if you used a 2011-2013 Sample Chara would be better. Regardless it tells you that Chara is one of the best players in the NHL at limiting the highest quality types of shots. He might not be as far out as Mike Green, but he's also facing better top line players which is something that's not on that chart but can be observed by looking at supplementary stats or just watching the game. Mike Green is a middle pairing defenseman who's very strong in that role. Dennis Wideman is a middle pairing defenseman who is not so great in that role. Trading Dennis Wideman for Mike Green would be a no-brainer.

Nope, no way I'm trading Wideman for Green. And I know that by watching the games. You'd be hard pressed to find a Flames fan who would agree to that trade, chart or no chart. Wideman's offence that he brings and his role as a PPQB more the makes up for his deficiencies defensively.

Second, those are cold hard statistics for shots against in the slot and in the crease. If they disagree with your beliefs, there's nothing I or anyone can do about it. But you see they DO tell you Giordano/Brodie are two of the best players in the NHL at limiting high quality shots on goal. Does that also disagree with your beliefs? Look up cognitive bias.

So going by your description, it also tells me that Pietrangelo is terrible at limiting high quality shots on goal. Worse then Phaneuf. Is that true also? Is that a cold hard fact?

I'll wait until the season starts and watch with my own two eyeballs to determine how effective a player like Dennis Wideman is/isn't on the PP, which was my whole argument to begin with. I've gone too far into this advanced stats debate and trapped myself in an endless cycle.

[GranteedEV]

Nope, no way I'm trading Wideman for Green. And I know that by watching the games.

You watched as many Capitals games in the last three seasons as you did Flames games?

You'd be hard pressed to find a Flames fan who would agree to that trade, chart or no chart. Wideman's offence that he brings and his role as a PPQB more the makes up for his deficiencies defensively.

I'm a Flames fan who would agree to that trade. You'd be more hard pressed to find a Red Wings fan who would agree to that trade, chart or no chart.

There is like, no argument for Wideman > Mike Green, other than "Wideman had 11 more points last season playing 595 more minutes". And the last time Mike Green played 1900+ minutes he had 20 more points than Wideman's career high season on a team that had 121 points in the regular season.

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

So going by your description, it also tells me that Pietrangelo is terrible at limiting high quality shots on goal. Worse then Phaneuf. Is that true also? Is that a cold hard fact?

How many of the last 212 Blues games and the last 212 Leafs games did you watch?

[hockey.modern]

Are the last two guys to the right Engelland and Smid?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by ScorchyScorch

Hamilton is pretty close to Brodie's level right now...except he's a few years younger*. That tells you a lot about where he'll project to be. Brodie's effectiveness comes from his skating ability allowing him to join the rush as an extra forward and still get back to defend, and setting up plays with great passes. Dougie has a bigger frame and can do it all. By Brodie's age he'll probably be pumping out similar points to Wideman's last season or better, while doing things right in his own zone.

He is every bit as good as Bouwmeester was after he signed a Flame contract and before he hit the ice.

I have high hopes for Hamilton but he is not at all close to being as good as Brodie 2014-15....

If The Bruins had Brodie and the Flames Hamilton last year the Bruins would be in the Playoffs and the Flames would have been golfing early.


The Bruins were able to trade Hamilton for draft picks.... After working with him for 4 years they decided he was not the a top-2 D-man that they were going to base their franchise on.

There was no way that the Flames would consider trading Brodie for the same sort of package or for Hamilton even up.

Hamilton 2014-15 is very comparable to Russell 2014-15.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

You watched as many Capitals games in the last three seasons as you did Flames games?



I'm a Flames fan who would agree to that trade. You'd be more hard pressed to find a Red Wings fan who would agree to that trade, chart or no chart.

There is like, no argument for Wideman > Mike Green, other than "Wideman had 11 more points last season playing 595 more minutes". And the last time Mike Green played 1900+ minutes he had 20 more points than Wideman's career high season on a team that had 121 points in the regular season.



How many of the last 212 Blues games and the last 212 Leafs games did you watch?

You've lost me bro. You presented that chart as cold hard stats. I was asking why then was Pietrangelo, one of the premier D's in the league, alongside Phaneuf. Not sure what that has to do with watching both those teams play.

You prefer Green. I prefer Wideman. Neither have anything to do with this thread. So we'll just agree to disagree.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

You watched as many Capitals games in the last three seasons as you did Flames games?





There is like, no argument for Wideman > Mike Green, other than "Wideman had 11 more points last season playing 595 more minutes". And the last time Mike Green played 1900+ minutes he had 20 more points than Wideman's career high season on a team that had 121 points in the regular season.

There is the simple fact that Wideman carried his team into the Playoffs over the last part of the season and was on the #1 defense pair in the playoffs ... playing 26.5 minutes a game where Green was the #5/6 pairing with Washington getting 2 minutes a game less than Engelland.

Green topped out at 18:57 in a 70 minute game against the Rangers.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

You've lost me bro. You presented that chart as cold hard stats. I was asking why then was Pietrangelo, one of the premier D's in the league, alongside Phaneuf. Not sure what that has to do with watching both those teams play.

Because maybe Pietrangelo isn't as "premier" as you/we think he is? I don't watch as many Blues or Leafs games I watch Flames games to be an expert on their players. When we play them, their team play is definitely tough to score on, but how much of that is Pietrangelo and how much of it is the forwards or the matchup? The stat illuminates something that's been happening on the ice. Why would you just brush it off and say "no, that never happened" when that's all the facts are saying. Does everything need context? Maybe, but sometimes stats can tell things that completely disagree with what "we believe". That's what cognitive bias is.

[FlameZilla]

If Brodie, a top pairing defenseman, is playing on the 3rd pairing in Calgary this season it means we truly have elite-level defence.

I tend to agree with the D pairings that were posted in the TSN article. I've said it before, but why not play Russell-Wideman and Brodie-Engelland equally? Gior-Hamo can hog tonnes of ice time and neither of the secondary pairings would need to be sheltered. It's a good problem to have.

Smid's return changes the dynamic as well, with another veteran LH shot to throw in the mix. Hamilton lined up with Smid today FWIW.

Also, why not line Brodie up with Hamilton? As the two youngest players in the D corps with the most potential why not let them forge a time-testing tandem right from the start? Giordano can work his way back from injury and shelter Engelland or whoever else needs sheltering.

There are plenty of options and I expect Hartley to mix it up a lot in camp to see what works best.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Because maybe Pietrangelo isn't as "premier" as you/we think he is? I don't watch as many Blues or Leafs games I watch Flames games to be an expert on their players. When we play them, their team play is definitely tough to score on, but how much of that is Pietrangelo and how much of it is the forwards or the matchup? The stat illuminates something that's been happening on the ice. Why would you just brush it off and say "no, that never happened" when that's all the facts are saying. Does everything need context? Maybe, but sometimes stats can tell things that completely disagree with what "we believe". That's what cognitive bias is.

Ok, well then I guess Pietrangelo is worse defensively then Phaneuf. That's that. The stats don't lie.

TIL

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Brodie's in a category of his own in denying shooting opportunities in the crease. Not a 3rd pairing defenceman.

From this story: http://www.tsn.ca/you-don-t-have-to-...ceman-1.358467

Also: Yikes Wideman.

This whole discussion is useless. We will see Gio, Brodie, Hamilton avg around 23-25 minutes, Russell and Wideman will get around 19 mins and whoever plays as the 6th dman get the rest. Hartley has already said this isn't peewee hockey where we to evenly distribute the time, the best guys will play a lot.

Now on to this ridiculous chart.

How are these even measured? I will take several guys in that top right hand corner and easily throw away several guys from bottom left.

Guys in the top right that are top defenders: Beachumin, Klein, Carlson, Barrie, DeKeyser, Fowler, Lindholm, Seabrook, Scandella, Hamhuis, Jones, McDonagh, Stone, Kronwall, Yandle, Pietrangelo, Faulk.

Guys in the bottom left that blow: Lovejoy, Fayne, Benn, Demers, Schultz, Boyle, Cole, Ellis, Hainsey, Benoit, Gardiner, Smith, Green.

That's like 50% from each group. No one should pay attention to whatever garbage measurement was used to create this chart.

[Dr. Doom]

I have a lot of friends asking me what's happening with the pairings for fantasy purposes... one guy in my keeper league just dropped Wideman even (which I think was a terrible move)...

I'm no expert and none of us here are the final say in the matter but I mean you just don't break up what works. It's common sense. Gio/Brodie has worked just as well as Wideman/Russell. Though the latter is more susceptible to change.

What you will find happening is DH spending some time here and there with Gio on the PP no doubt (and even w/ Brodie I bet) and he'll push Russell into the sheer defensive minutes a bit more where he belongs as well, meaning by the end of the season he'll likely be paired with Wideman full time - that is if Wideman isn't dealt by then.

I really don't see much coming in the way of Gio-Brodie however, lots of articles about on the subject that the Flames would be wise to mold him after Gio in fact and the best way to do that is continuing to do what they are doing.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Ok, well then I guess Pietrangelo is worse defensively then Phaneuf. That's that. The stats don't lie.

TIL

He's barely a top 4 guy apparently

If he gets any worse should we expect the Blues to buy him out in the offseason? That's a huge amount of coin to be worse than Phaneuf.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by hockey.modern

Are the last two guys to the right Engelland and Smid?

Yup. What's this picture from?

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

If Brodie, a top pairing defenseman, is playing on the 3rd pairing in Calgary this season it means we truly have elite-level defence.

I tend to agree with the D pairings that were posted in the TSN article. I've said it before, but why not play Russell-Wideman and Brodie-Engelland equally? Gior-Hamo can hog tonnes of ice time and neither of the secondary pairings would need to be sheltered. It's a good problem to have.

Smid's return changes the dynamic as well, with another veteran LH shot to throw in the mix. Hamilton lined up with Smid today FWIW.

Also, why not line Brodie up with Hamilton? As the two youngest players in the D corps with the most potential why not let them forge a time-testing tandem right from the start? Giordano can work his way back from injury and shelter Engelland or whoever else needs sheltering.

There are plenty of options and I expect Hartley to mix it up a lot in camp to see what works best.

I never really considered this until I read your post but when you think about it, it makes some sense. Keep the established pairing together and play Hamilton with Smid.

On a couple of occasions when I've heard Hartley or Treliving acknowledge the D core the 6 names they mention always include Smid.

Gio-Brodie
Smid-Hamilton
Russell-Wideman

PP: Gio, Brodie, Hamilton, Wideman
PK: Gio, Brodie, Hamilton, Russell, Smid

[hockey.modern]

Originally Posted by saillias

Yup. What's this picture from?

CowboysCalgary Instagram. I think they were having lunch with the flames players and doing a q&a