Is Brodie now a 3rd pairing DMan?

[Serapth]

This is a thought that never ever entered my head. The Gio/TJ pairing is perhaps the best in the league last year.

Today I read this article on TSN about the Flames. Among it, they gave their projected lineup, and for the lazy I included it below:



At first I dismissed this as pure stupidity, I mean there is simply no way Brodie would be on the 3rd pairing. Then after thinking about it a bit more, well... it kinda makes sense. The Russel/Wideman pairing is already well established and not too many teams would say no to that combo as their second pair. Hamilton I is the new star player and of course Gio IS what makes it the first pair in the first place. So, does that leave Brodie the odd man out?



/ In all honesty, look at the depth chart, we really need to make a couple trades! At the same time, I disagree with the 3rd/4th lines and a few of the "on the bubble" picks. In fact this list looks nothing like one I'd have made personally, but for the most part it does make sense.

[YYC in LAX]

No

[getbak]

No

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by YYC in LAX

No

Then how do you break down the lines? It's either Brodie/Gio or Hamilton/Gio and the other gets pushed down the depth chart. The Russel/Wideman tandem is very good and it's dangerous to mess with that, so where does that leave you?

[FFR]

Yeah - what he said ^. No. Definitely not. I don't think you break up Brodie and Giordano. I think you look at playing Hamilton with Russell. Then play your third pairing as a combination of Engellend/Nakladal/Wotherspoon/Wideman/???.

There is no way Brodie is a third pairing defenseman. I think he has a higher ceiling than Giordano.

[FFR]

Originally Posted by Serapth

Then how do you break down the lines? It's either Brodie/Gio or Hamilton/Gio and the other gets pushed down the depth chart. The Russel/Wideman tandem is very good and it's dangerous to mess with that, so where does that leave you?

So in your first post you say you think Brodio/Giordano was one of the best pairings in the league last year. But you are willing to break them up. Yet you don't want to mess with Russell/Wideman because they were very good and it's dangerous to mess with that. So which is it? Is it dangerous to mess with very good, or not? I think you have to keep your top pairing together. I think Wideman is cleary the odd man out of this - he's the one that drops to a third pairing.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Serapth

Then how do you break down the lines? It's either Brodie/Gio or Hamilton/Gio and the other gets pushed down the depth chart. The Russel/Wideman tandem is very good and it's dangerous to mess with that, so where does that leave you?

Gio-Hamilton
Brodie-Wides
Russell-Engel

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Why are we wanting to split up the Gio-Brodie pairing? That's crazy talk.

Gio-Brodie
Hamilton-Wideman
Russell-Engelland
Smid

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by FFR

So in your first post you say you think Brodio/Giordano was one of the best pairings in the league last year. But you are willing to break them up. Yet you don't want to mess with Russell/Wideman because they were very good and it's dangerous to mess with that. So which is it? Is it dangerous to mess with very good, or not? I think you have to keep your top pairing together. I think Wideman is cleary the odd man out of this - he's the one that drops to a third pairing.

Mostly because after Gio went down, Brodie showed that he could play with other players, in fact make them play much better.

On the other hand, Russel and Wideman seem to have greatly exceeded expectations and a lot of it the chemistry between them. Together are they better than the sum of their parts? I don't think so.


In NO way am I saying Brodie is a 3rd pairing DMan, he is easily a 1A/1B. He has however proven he can play with and be extremely successful with other players. In fact, it is Brodie's skill that makes him so flexible on who he can be paired with.

[PugnaciousIntern]

No

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

Why are we wanting to split up the Gio-Brodie pairing? That's crazy talk.

Gio-Brodie
Hamilton-Wideman
Russell-Engelland
Smid

This was my assumed pairing up until now, with Wotherspoon as the 7th/8th, depending on Smid's status. I think deep down it's the pairing I'd like to see too, but the TSN lines did get me thinking about the situation.

[FFR]

Originally Posted by Serapth

Mostly because after Gio went down, Brodie showed that he could play with other players, in fact make them play much better.

On the other hand, Russel and Wideman seem to have greatly exceeded expectations and a lot of it the chemistry between them. Together are they better than the sum of their parts? I don't think so.


In NO way am I saying Brodie is a 3rd pairing DMan, he is easily a 1A/1B. He has however proven he can play with and be extremely successful with other players. In fact, it is Brodie's skill that makes him so flexible on who he can be paired with.

Fair enough. Though I think Russell hasn't been given a lot of opportunity to show he can play better because him and Wideman played so well together last season. I think a lot of people underestimate Russell. I think he's a better defenseman than most people think - both offensively and defensively. I think he is better than the combination of Wideman/Russell (whereas I think Wideman has hit his peak - he is what he is). I think they should give Russell the chance with Hamilton to see what he can do and if he can step up his game further.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Serapth

Mostly because after Gio went down, Brodie showed that he could play with other players, in fact make them play much better.

On the other hand, Russel and Wideman seem to have greatly exceeded expectations and a lot of it the chemistry between them. Together are they better than the sum of their parts? I don't think so.


In NO way am I saying Brodie is a 3rd pairing DMan, he is easily a 1A/1B. He has however proven he can play with and be extremely successful with other players. In fact, it is Brodie's skill that makes him so flexible on who he can be paired with.

Of course Brodie can play with other defenders. So can Giordano. So can Russell and Wideman, and any other quality NHL defenseman.

That's not a reason to break up a pairing that works.

I have said this in another thread already, but the idea of breaking up Giordano and Brodie, so that you don't break up Russell and Wideman, is so ludicrous that it is difficult to respond to.

When setting up the defense, start with your best players and do what makes sense with them. Then work your way down to the guys that will get less ice-time and less key ice-time.

This training camp is going to be all about who works well with Hamilton.

Maybe that's Russell. Maybe its Engelland or Smid or Wotherspoon. Or maybe it's Giordano or Brodie.

But if you're going to break up Giordano/Brodie, there has to be a damn good reason for it. And there has to be a great alternative option for whichever one isn't playing with Hamilton.

I think some fans may be getting ahead of themselves with Hamilton. He is a great player. He has UNLIMITED potential. But right now, Giordano and Brodie are both better defensemen.

That won't continue to be true forever. And it might not even be true in a year. But right now, today, Hamilton isn't as good as Giordano or Brodie.

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

When setting up the defense, start with your best players and do what makes sense with them. Then work your way down to the guys that will get less ice-time and less key ice-time.

Well, this is exactly the problem.

Gio/Hamilton/Brodie

Who are the best two?


It's not an easy question to answer, and the reason why this is even a question. You clearly rank Hamilton as the 3rd in that list. I don't know yet.

[shermanator]

[Yamer]

The biggest problem for me is that most of us are still stuck in the traditional conceptualization of 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th line combinations and their subsequent correlation with skill level and ice-time.

In reality many teams have different combinations of 1A/1B or 2A/2B lines. Each line has a role to play, and their ice-time and effectiveness is purely dependent on the game at hand.

I would imagine there is a lot of slotting in and out with the kind of defensive depth the Flames have. To me, Brodie can be generally classified as a Top 3 defender on a majority of teams in the league.

[Resolute 14]

Jesus... the Chart was very obviously organized by left shot and right shot, not by pairing.

[GranteedEV]

Brodie is top pairing on any team in the NHL from Tampa to Nashville.

The Russell-Wideman does not need to be preserved.

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Brodie is top pairing on any team in the NHL from Tampa to Nashville.

So is Gio, so is Hamilton.

[sworkhard]

Hamilton shoots right, so I could see him playing beside Gio with Brodie playing the left side with Wideman.

Russel should be part of the 3rd pairing with whoever else makes it there. I expect even strength ice time to be much more even between the pairs this year than last year.