[News] CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[Smartcar]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Dude, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel...

Totally wrong, just look at the poll at the top of the page, but hey, lets not let facts get in the way. As for seperate stadium and arena, are you offering to foot the difference in price? Ya, didn't think so.

I didn't respond to the poll because "I don't support it in this location and not because I need more info" was not one of the responses. I was at the STH event and it was all rah rah so I just STFU. But these are my concerns:

- CRL finanacing: if the facility will be owned by the City, it's exempt from taxation, so where will the extra tax revenue come from to pay for it? When the area around it gets developed, but how long will that take? I'm assuming the City will be expected to front-end it. So $250M from us taxpayers, repaid in maybe 50 years. The City has debt limit so that will take away from other projects.

- if the City owns it, will the City get the revenue? Naming rights, concessions, parking/user fees, etc. If not, what's the point other than the City foregoing tax revenue? KK made it sound like the owners were being generous, IMO maybe not.

- What's going to happen with the Saddledome? I seriously doubt it's going to become a convention centre, KK said it's an inverted pyramid with a roof that is not that easy to work with. Even if it could, who will pay for that?

- Why create a new entertainment district from scratch? Surely it will be less costly to build using existing infrastructure - i.e. transportation networks, and it doesn't help the City and taxpayers that the Stampede grounds will be much less utilized.

I could go on. I like the concept of a new world class facility, and I agree that a covered stadium/arena combo would be more efficient and less expensive, but I don't think building in a brownfield site where there is little infrastructure in place and uncertain costs is the right way to go. I"m surprised they didn't consider an area within the Stampede Grounds or the East Village there's a lot of land there that could accommodate this.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by SebC

I'm not aware of this phenomenon, but perhaps the problem lies with the execution/age of the facilities being torn down, and is not inherent to "indoor multisport stadiums"?

Would like to hear more from you about this. What's being torn down? Where? Why? How does it apply to the CalgaryNext?

Traditionally, the combination has been a multiplex that houses football and baseball (numerous). The most recent one I can think of is the Skydome which was the last of the big era multiplexs. Camden Yards was built and changed baseball stadiums back to stand alone venues with an intimate feel. So it is more of a function of old multiplexes being torn down, but new ones have not been built. It's been separate facilities for baseball and football (often, football stays). O.co is the last dual use stadium I can think of that is still in operation.

Whatever the reason, multiplexs have been on their way out. They simply aren't built frequently. It may be necessary bc the CFL is such a small league that the building needs multiple tenants, but generally speaking, it's counter to the trend in sports.

Personally, I feel it's very difficult to make a multiplex not feel like a highschoolgym with the bleachers pushed back. Just cavernous, cheap and temporary.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Calgary is not world class though, and probably never will be.

It's amazing to me how nobody knows where it is. I see it as world class because I grew up there and saw it grow (Outside of the past 6 years anyway) so I am shocked to see that nobody knows anything about the city that I am from.

Vancouver and Toronto and to a lesser level Montreal are the only world class cities in Canada.

Just for the record, in my view (and I think that of a vast majority of people), Montreal is substantially closer to "world city" (whatever that might mean) than Vancouver (although Vancouver is no doubt closer than Calgary).

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by The Familia

Because the Flames ownership just took a huge dump on the entire cities head. This dumpster fire of a "proposal" has everyone in a pissy mood. As is, I hope this proposal doesn't even see the bottom of a trash bin. It deserves to be incinerated. This proposal tries to please everyone by offering everything, in reality it pleases no one because everything is mediocre, underwhelming, and flat out amateur. That fieldhouse/stadium takes the cake. I can't imagine sitting in that convention centre gymnasium on a hot sunny labour day. I'd rather keep the Saddledome and McMahon for the next two decades if it means aborting this mess. The Flames should be building two separate facilities that are specific for its use. An indoor arena that hosts hockey, lacrosse, and concerts, and a stadium for CFL and soccer.

Well said.

[The Familia]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Dude, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel...

Totally wrong, just look at the poll at the top of the page, but hey, lets not let facts get in the way. As for seperate stadium and arena, are you offering to foot the difference in price? Ya, didn't think so.

I didn't hold back, I just told you.

First, that poll is utter garbage. Who created those options? What a mix mash of strange options that don't provide actual answers to any of the major questions. I'd like a new poll based solely on the concept and design to this point (funding issues can be another issue all together).

Second, as a tax payer I will be paying for this multiplex of dung. If the Flames pay for this whole thing themselves then they can build a teepee for all I care. They are not willing to do that so as a tax paying citizen I get a say.

I'd prefer to have two separate facilities that provide excellent sight lines, bold/modern/cutting edge architecture, great variety of concession options, multitude of seating styles (club, private, nosebleeds, party plaza, etc), gathering places, team museums/displays, etc. Only purpose built facilities geared towards their respective sport can achieve this. What we have planned is a travesty to all the teams involved. Look around the net at other teams fan sites and the reaction to this proposal. It is mostly negative.

[bax]

Originally Posted by The Familia

Because the Flames ownership just took a huge dump on the entire cities head. This dumpster fire of a "proposal" has everyone in a pissy mood. As is, I hope this proposal doesn't even see the bottom of a trash bin. It deserves to be incinerated. This proposal tries to please everyone by offering everything, in reality it pleases no one because everything is mediocre, underwhelming, and flat out amateur. That fieldhouse/stadium takes the cake. I can't imagine sitting in that convention centre gymnasium on a hot sunny labour day. I'd rather keep the Saddledome and McMahon for the next two decades if it means aborting this mess. The Flames should be building two separate facilities that are specific for its use. An indoor arena that hosts hockey, lacrosse, and concerts, and a stadium for CFL and soccer.

You don't have a clue

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by The Familia

What a mix mash of strange options that don't provide actual answers to any of the major questions.

You could say it's a poll that perfectly reflects CalgaryNEXT.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

I'm guessing it's because there's a lot of disappointment going around. We wanted an offer we couldn't refuse, and what we got so far has even the most die-hard building supporters wondering why we're still waiting to be wowed.

Pissy or not, all of this discussion is pretty telling to me.

From my viewing of the Godfather, an offer one couldn't refuse wasn't something to aspire to.

[JiriHrdina]

My comment about people being pissy was largely in reference to how people are choosing to talk to each other.

[The Familia]

Originally Posted by bax

You don't have a clue

Well then provide me one. How's Ken King's Kool-Aid tasting? Thirsty for more fruit punch or do you want to try the Strawberry-Kiwi?

You are satisfied with everything as you see fit from funding to concept to remediation to location to design? Glad you have low standards for this city. I don't. Like I said, if they pay for the whole thing they can build whatever they like. If tax money is to be used and I have no choice in that regard (I'd prefer no money, I can live with the clean up cost though), then I want the money to be spent on a high quality facility(s).

[Buster]

Originally Posted by The Familia

Because the Flames ownership just took a huge dump on the entire cities head. This dumpster fire of a "proposal" has everyone in a pissy mood. As is, I hope this proposal doesn't even see the bottom of a trash bin. It deserves to be incinerated. This proposal tries to please everyone by offering everything, in reality it pleases no one because everything is mediocre, underwhelming, and flat out amateur. That fieldhouse/stadium takes the cake. I can't imagine sitting in that convention centre gymnasium on a hot sunny labour day. I'd rather keep the Saddledome and McMahon for the next two decades if it means aborting this mess. The Flames should be building two separate facilities that are specific for its use. An indoor arena that hosts hockey, lacrosse, and concerts, and a stadium for CFL and soccer.

this

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Because no level of government (Federal, Provincial, or City) wanted to touch it.

Legally the contamination is the province's responsibility unless the city starts construction on the land, then it becomes the city's problem.

They have spent so money to prevent the contamination from spreading into the river.

In addition to this, land being contaminated to some degree is actually more common than many people think. The West Village land is among of the most sizable and prominent but there are plenty of other examples in the city:

- Parts of the current Quarry Park development are contaminated, mainly the parts where there is surface parking, as that was all you could economically do with those areas. Doing more with these areas would have meant doing costly cleanup.

- The former Hub Oil site at 17th Avenue and 60th Street SE. There was an explosion at the Hub Oil refinery in 1999, and this combined with the refinery actually operating has left the soil contaminated. There had been plans to put a "cap" (bring in new dirt over top of the contaminated dirt) on the existing site and having buildings with slab-on grade construction (minimal digging and building underground). This hasn't come to pass yet.

- The land that Deerfoot Meadows now sits on was contaminated to some degree if I recall correctly. At the very least the land was relatively difficult to build on. Again, not much else you could do economically other than surface parking lots and slab-on-grade buildings.

- Lots of sites in the SE industrial areas are contaminated and won't be able to have other uses when the Green Line LRT goes through and development pressures follow. An example is the former dry waste landfill in Ogden. In some cases, the cleanup may be economical, in many cases it won't be.

- The other strongly rumoured sites for the new stadium/arena project are probably contaminated too. Firepark (former tire plant at Memorial Drive and Deerfoot Trail) certainly is contaminated. The Railtown lands at 4th Street East and 11th Avenue SE, being former CPR lands for years and used for their operations, would almost certainly require some cleanup.

- Extending the discussion a bit, there are lots of sour gas wells that are relatively close to existing development in the city, most prominently in the far NE. Some have been eventually dealt with, others have inhibited what can be built and when.

------------------

The point is, governments can't just go around cleaning up everything that has ever been contaminated, or require that it be cleaned up by the owners as there is a lot of it.

Practically, so long as the contamination isn't actively harming people or adjacent sites, it can wait until development pressures force an appropriate solution. This is what is happening with the West Village site. All other aspects of this proposal and arena news aside, it's good that this important area is being given a chance to be cleaned up and substantially developed.

[bax]

Originally Posted by The Familia

Well then provide me one. How's Ken King's Kool-Aid tasting? Thirsty for more fruit punch or do you want to try the Strawberry-Kiwi?



You are satisfied with everything as you see fit from funding to concept to remediation to location to design? Glad you have low standards for this city. I don't. Like I said, if they pay for the whole thing they can build whatever they like. If tax money is to be used and I have no choice in that regard (I'd prefer no money, I can live with the clean up cost though), then I want the money to be spent on a high quality facility(s).

Take a couple deep breaths, come down from your temper tantrum and look at the big picture here.

This is an initial proposal that is far from what the finished product will be. We are a long ways away from completion and many things will change along the way. Every arena district in North America has some form of tax money going towards it. To expect a project of this size to not is just silly.

You want high quality facilities? What exactly gives you the impression that these facilities won't be of high quality? All we have seen is a couple early renders with little to no facts. It's way too early to get worked up about things like that.

Obviously this project won't please every single person in every single way, but this is a good starting point and something this city needs.

You say I don't have high standards for this city and you do? Yet you would rather just keep as is and have the Flames and the Stamps continue to operate out of McMahon and the Saddledome for the next 20 years? Calgary would become the laughing stock of the professional sports world.

[Hackey]

I think the point was If your gonna spend a billion dollars and have average facilities the money doesn't really outweigh the improvement. No to the "multiplex of dung." Like you said though we need to wait and see. So far we haven't seen much.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by SebC

What's being torn down? Where?

Candlestick Park | Demolished | San Francisco
Riverfront Stadium | Demolished | Cincinnati
Three Rivers Stadium | Demolished | Pittsburgh
Veterans Stadium | Demolished | Philadelphia
Stadio delle Alpi | Demolished | Turin
Kingdome | Demolished | Seattle
Astrodome | Closed | Houston
RFK Stadium | Single Tenant Remaining | Washington

[corporatejay]

Who is at rfk?

[LanceUppercut]

Initially, I was excited at this proposal and the funding model didn't seem too outlandish. However, after 24 hours I've changed my mind. The Flames (Ken King?) really blew this proposal in my opinion. Here is a list of my issues:

1) Putting the arena smack dab in the middle of Bow Trail. If they were married to the idea of the west village why not work with the City to properly plan and develop the area while including the re-alignment of Bow Trail. This would allow them to free up more real estate that would end up paying municipal taxes.
2) The CRL to pay for 25% of it. This would be heavily subsidized by the rest of the city while it is being paid off. Plus, from what I can see, there isn't a huge area left to develop into residential/commercial buildings.
3) The users of the building paying a tax on the ticket to help pay for the facility is fine. If they plan on using the City's borrowing capacity to cover it, that is not. The Flames ownership needs to borrow this 250 million and not the city.
4) The city owning the building once complete is NOT a good thing. The taxpayers are then on the hook for any defects that may show up years down the line, and for eventual demolition at the end of it's life. Let the Flames own the building and lease the land from the city.

It really feels like they chose the West Village to try and maximize opportunities to pry taxpayer money to help build it.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Who is at rfk?

Magneto

[Addick]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Who is at rfk?

DC United of the MLS. Not an original tenant but the last one.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Addick

Candlestick Park | Demolished | San Francisco
Riverfront Stadium | Demolished | Cincinnati
Three Rivers Stadium | Demolished | Pittsburgh
Veterans Stadium | Demolished | Philadelphia
Stadio delle Alpi | Demolished | Turin
Kingdome | Demolished | Seattle
Astrodome | Closed | Houston
RFK Stadium | Single Tenant Remaining | Washington

This is apples and oranges. I don't know about the Turin stadium but none of the rest of these were built as indoor field houses in northern cities with a primary purpose of serving amateur sports. These were all built for
primary purpose of pro sports with astrodome maybe one exception.

It's certainly reasonable to wonder if this will be an acceptable field house (don't think I know what that is) but I don't see much of a correlation between this proposal and the stadiums on your list. Unless you are suggesting the plan is to put an MLB team in there which I agree wouldn't work too well.