[News] CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by curves2000

There are a few more points I think some people left out in some of their arguments too.

No matter who actually ends up paying for the clean up (city, province, feds) there is only 1 taxpayer and the feds just coughed up major money for ring road/ South LRT.

The cost to build the $200 million fieldhouse also takes into consideration the costs of absorbing a CFL sized stadium. If the city needed to build the fieldhouse strictly for the citizens than I doubt the costs would be $200 mil. A basic facility for athletics doesn't require 30 000 seats, concessions, restaurants and massive HD scoreboards. A huge portion of the cost of building the field house is the CFL component to it of which the Flames benefit financially.

Just throwing a number out there but I can envision a quality facility in Calgary costing maybe $40 mil?? Remember the city owns the land so there isn't an acquisition cost .

I suspect we might be in this a little longer than people think. The costs with clean up, building a new massive project to improve Crowchild Trail / Bow Trail are going to be a billion or more. The Flames are going to delay putting money into the Dome for renovation and improvements. There are extensions, seat removal, walls being blown out etc that could be done to improve the "fan experience" for the short term. As per the Flames contract with the city for use of the Dome, its at the Flames expense.

The Canucks organization has just finished completing a massive upgrade project on Rogers arena to make it more modern, roomier and a better experience. That arena is smack in the middle of train stations, condo buildings, massive CFL stadium etc. Not much room to work with but they did it. Winnipeg also finished some modernization programs too. MLSE is looking at a massive project to upgrade ACC in Toronto for the NBA All-Star game, NHL All-Star game and more.

Long term we do need a brand new rink but the notion that an older barn can't be upgraded is horeshi** One of the biggest scams or misinformation being told out there is the fact that Calgary will have the oldest rink in North America very soon. This is not TRUE!! The NHL always says this but forgets to mention in NY M.S.G opened in 1968. They have had to invest hundreds of millions to upgrade and modernize but that's because it makes sense and it needs to be done. I believe in 10 years MSG has to be out of its existing location for improvements to the train station underneath and they just spent a billion on renos.

Here is a link to the Crowchild Trail improvements from a few years ago.
(http://www.calgaryherald.com/Crowchi...253/story.html

Cheers

The City has already decided a field house will cost them $202MM.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by JohnnyT

MSG is going no where and I don't see how this argument is valid or what this argument even is. Are you suggesting the flames put this 900 million into the saddledome instead?

MSG was told in 2013 they had to move from their current location in 10 years to facilitate rebuilding Penn Station
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/ny...d-to-move.html

[VictoryJuice]

how did the land become contaminated in the first place?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by VictoryJuice

how did the land become contaminated in the first place?

For 40 years, it was the site of a factory where telephone poles and railway ties were treated with creosote. Nobody gave a damn about environmental matters when the plant was built. So, gradually, some of the creosote soaked into the ground – enough to be a health hazard for anything but heavy industrial use (or fully paved-over parking lots).

It's basically the same as the contamination you get underneath old gas stations and oil refineries. New ones require special foundations to contain spills and leaks and prevent them from seeping into the water table.

For obvious reasons, the city is not going to zone that land for heavy industry again.

[Looch City]

There's only one way to test the feasibility of the space use and traffic design....

Model it in Cities Skylines.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by curves2000

One of the biggest scams or misinformation being told out there is the fact that Calgary will have the oldest rink in North America very soon.

One other thing I noted in the presentation was that somehow the Eskimos facility (Commonwealth Stadium) was included with the rest of the newer stadiums on the CFL slide. 37 years old and somehow newer than the Skydome?

[YYC in LAX]

Where's the casino?

[stampsx2]

If the stadiums getting a roof i'm now interested in stampeder season tickets. We get too many rain/snow days to enjoy games outdoors. A roof will help me take the family to games. I like it.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Wonder how much the acquisition of the Stampeders set back/changed plans in 2012. Could have just been looking at a hockey rink at the time then totally shifted gears.

Or they could have purchased the Stampeders with this in mind from the start as I imagine the feasibility of McMahon was taken into account when the team was purchased.

[Fire]

Is there an end date for the lease the Flames have with the Saddledome or does it just get extended automatically year after year.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by D as in David

One other thing I noted in the presentation was that somehow the Eskimos facility (Commonwealth Stadium) was included with the rest of the newer stadiums on the CFL slide. 37 years old and somehow newer than the Skydome?

Was curious about that and Molson Stadium.

Perhaps there's been enough investment in renovations to quantify it as 'newish'?

[Bunk]

After thinking about it much of the day after attending the announcement, here are my thoughts on what we saw today:

Stadium and Arena

As a citizen and a Flames season ticket holder, I would like to see a new facility within the next ten years. I think there is benefit and there is a case to be made. Similarly on the stadium side, I think there is a rationale to replace McMahon and there is synergy in combining a field house function with a stadium.

Having the capacity of the dome roughly the same or slightly less as stated by Ken King makes sense. Making it larger is not the point.

The stadium capacity of 30,000 expandable to accommodate a grey cup or other larger events makes sense to me. I don't mind it being fully enclosed as long as the roof is translucent. The only thing worse than being outside on a freezing cold day is being inside without sunlight on a nice sunny warm day. Combining the stadium with the field house function makes sense to me and there is justification for public spending for this component (more on this below).

Overall District Design

This is where I start to have issues

First, the real point of having an arena or stadium "district" like this is to use the activity of the sporting facility to spin off other complementary uses that create a destination and gathering place in the city. KK said he didn't want a 17th avenue type thing, that's fine, but this seems to so far lack a real place associated with the stadium and arena.

The main entry point is via Sunalta LRT station. It seems to just take people directly from the platform, onto a bridge and right inside to the stadium/arena. The thing that gets me excited about places like LA Live or Edmonton Arena district is that there is a sense of arrival in a vibrant public square with restaurants and bars and an exciting vibe. This needs something like that.

The arena/and stadium itself the way it's situated and the fact that Bow Trail is not realigned at all makes the facility somewhat isolated and isolating. The residential/commercial and other associated development seems detached from the stadium/arena itself. It's unclear how people living in this area could access the Sunalta LRT - there is no apparent way to cross Bow Trail

The site's greatest asset, the Bow River frontage is still largely cut off and orphaned by virtue of a freeway style road that is west-bound Bow Trail. Despite cost, it is a massive mistake to leave the road configuration how it currently is. Ken King himself called it less than ideal.

The presentation through the renderings was also poor quality. I was almost certain the image that leaked last night must be a hoax. Even someone with fairly basic photoshop skills could do a better job. Perspectives are wrong, shadows are wrong, you have condo buildings touching the LRT guideway, etc.

Funding Proposal

This is where things get even tougher

$200 million cash from the owners

Not quite enough in my opinion. This is an $890 million project not counting remediation. Less than 1/4 of the facility cost, and (far) less than 1/5 the overall project cost.

$240 million CRL

As it's been talked about before, expecting to pay back a $240 million loan through new tax revenue in this area is tough with the entire area developing out with taxable high density uses. It's made much more challenging when roughly half the land is taken up by much lower tax paying (or no tax paying uses) like a stadium/arena

Ticket Tax

It was a mistake in my opinion to not suggest the owners were going to backstop the loan for the ticket tax. I suppose we would assume the City would finance the ticket tax. I believe the user pay component is sound, it should probably be backstopped by the owners, not the City. If it is planned to be backstopped by the owners, bad not to say that today with utmost clarity.

$200 million from City for fieldhouse

I agree there is a strong rationale to combine these facilities so it's used more than 20 days of the year. There is efficiency and synergy as KK pointed out allocating the $200m it had planned for the foothills site and redirect it here.

The challenge is it's a priority project for the City, but it is unfunded. The capital funding available for 2015-18 is allocated, and it's unclear where they will fund the source of funding to allocate to this project. If NDP replace MSI with something in 2018 when the current 10 year deal (which payed for WLRT among other things) expires, there is a chance it could go to this project.

City land and facility ownership

I did find it interesting that KK suggested it be a City owned facility and remain City-owned land. The challenge is it's unclear (and seems unlikely) the City would realize any upside from ownership such as concession revenue or parking revenue. Therefore it's a risk.

Environmental Remediation and other infrastructure

This cost is not yet pinned down, but KK suggested it should be a City/Provincial/Federal responsibility. It could be a big cost, it maybe smaller as KK suggested based on their research, but right now is a huge unknown. Again, if it's City ownership, Flames are indemnified and City takes all the risk?

There's seemingly more questions than answers at this point, but here we go - it's good it's finally open for public discussion.

[BigFlameDog]

Some of you need to go read the friggin proposal on the website because you are clearly spewing numbers that you heard on the c-train.

It's pretty annoying to do a flyby with completely incorrect facts.

[Tyler]

Appreciate your insights Bunk. Good stuff.

[GullFoss]

I like the concept of FlamesNext...but as a taxpayer, the deal is bad. That said...objectively, its not terrible.

Here's how I think it breaks down:

Flames Proposal: $780m
Infrastructure: $220m
Value of remediated land vs current value: $50m
Total Cost: $1.05b
---
Flames and private interests: $450m
Government: $600m
Total Pay: $1.05b


Objectively, you have to agree there is some type of public benefit to these projects. As a result, there is some room for government subsidies. Based on absolutely nothing, I would think something like the following for government subsidies is fair:

1) $50m on the football stadium
2) $75m on the hockey stadium and event centre
3) $75m on the infrastructure.
4) $200m for the field house
Total: $400m

As a result, my guess is that this deal will get done...eventually. But the flames do have to pony up more. But is that really unexpected? While the flames rolled this out as a "this is our plan", its actually "Here's our first offer"


At the end of the negotiation, I speculate it looks something like this:

Flames: $275m
Ticket Tax: $325m
Total Private: $600m

Province Infrastructure: $75m
Province Field House: $50m
Fed Infrastructure and remediation: $100m
City Infrastructure: $25m
City Field House: $150m
Community Revitilization Levy: $50m
Total Public: $450m

Total: $1.05b

Let the negotiations begin!

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Bunk

After thinking about it much of the day after attending the announcement, here are my thoughts on what we saw today:

Great post

Thanks. I basically agree with everything in this post.

I want to emphasize that risk is a very real thing. I'm not sure why we're so willing to take on 490M+ of risk for a private entity so readily. I know that according to Jay Random, a nuke would have to hit Calgary before the risk is realized, but I truly think it's something to consider.

The fact of the matter is, the CS&E have all the upside, and the City of Calgary/Taxpayers absorb ALL of the downside in the current deal. The only thing that the City of Calgary gets is that we get an awesome addition to the skyline and a revitalized area.

I want West Village to be developed, but I'd go as far as to say that the City/Province should go ahead and clean up the area, and CS&E should fund and operate the entire facility (the entire 890M) as per their design, and pay the appropriate property tax, rather than making the city liable for anything. A "city owned asset" is a BAD thing in this case, considering most facilities like this are approximately break even operationally (as previously noted, the Saddledome Foundation made a profit of 1.5M in 2010-2011).

[H2SO4(aq)]

At the risk of sounding like an absolute moron, what in the hell is a Field House?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

At the risk of sounding like an absolute moron, what in the hell is a Field House?

one of these!



a facility that can transform and house many different types of events

[Cube Inmate]

After 9 hours of digesting this proposal, it's not sitting very well with me. I would like a downtown arena and I think great facilities are a necessity but the funding and building model worries me.

The building idea: Gluing two buildings together does offer possible operational efficiencies, but could seriously hamstring the owners/operators when conflicts come up (be it scheduling, maintenance, or even the desire to sell one or more of the sports teams). I'd rather see standalone facilities, but clearly cramped space and reduced development costs are a factor. In addition, it somehow bothers me to think of our premier sports franchise being a tenant in a much larger facility. I know it's stupid and emotional, but teams' identities always include their arenas, and this proposal makes me feel as if the Flames were going to be nothing more than a user of (less than half of) a giant municipal megaplex. Yes, they lease the dome now, but for all intents and purposes you know it's theirs and only theirs.

On funding -- offering the city ownership of a depreciating asset seems like a bit a stretch. The value in such a stadium/arena is in revenue, not in the ownership of a venue with only one viable tenant. If the eventual StadiaRena is well designed to have a good 50 year life without becoming obsolete (and how could know this?) then let's go! Make the Flames also sign a 50 year lease.

Yup, I really don't know how I feel about this.

[H2SO4(aq)]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

a facility that can transform and house many different types of events

ahhh yes. Like the butterdome (go Golden Bears!)