Cecil the Lion killed by American poacher

[East Coast Flame]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Great point. They won't, because internet shamers live in an echo chamber where they want to spew death threats and then move on to the next thing to be outaged about, but it would be nice if it happened. This guy was caught and he'll be punished if found guilty by Zimbabwe or the US or whoever, there's no point to the calling for bodily harm/threats.

I agree regarding the bodily harm/threats - but in what world do you think this guy will be punished for his crimes? What would the US charge him for? Or if he is found guilty in Zimbabwe, what are the chances he is extradited? Fat chance of that ever happening.

A lot of the outrage that is coming for this is that people are pissed that absolutely nothing is going to happen to this person, and he will never have to face any consequences for his crimes (ie. Bill Cosby).

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

EDIT: ehhh that wasn't the clip I was looking for.

Anyway, East Coast Flame I think I agree that a lot to do with him getting away with this - but who gets to decide now when enough is enough and what the correct punishment is? As someone said earlier, are we satisfied if his kids are bullied at school for a couple of months? If his wife can't walk down the street without people cursing her and telling her they want to murder her husband? This is the problem with mob justice, there is no nuance or proportionality to the response, it's just an on/off switch and absolutely no one is accountable for getting the "justice" right.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Would you apply that same logic to everything? For example, in some countries it is legal for an adult man to have sex with a 12 year old child. If Dr. Palmer thought it was exciting and enjoyed it, would it be acceptable for him to go to Angola and arrange to have sex with a kid as long as he thought he wasn't breaking any local laws?

Sure go for it. That's for laws to decide. Not me.
I support countries like ours trying to change laws and governments of countries to protect 12 year olds through educational programs, charities, UNICEF etc.., rather than go after the individuals themselves.

The internet is shaming this guy because he's rich and in the other incident, shaming the girl because she's hot.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The internet is shaming this guy because he's rich and in the other incident, shaming the girl because she's hot.

I'd actually say the internet is "shaming" them because they did something really ####ty. Legal or not.

[East Coast Flame]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I don't agree with Kimmel's argument here. He says that at face value the dentist followed all the rules and wasn't breaking any laws but goes off on how hunting can be exciting. That's not his call. Just because you don't understand or like something doesn't mean it's wrong.

...but it is illegal? The pair who ran the hunting company have been charged with poaching and the dentist could be as well.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Yeah act like you're being watched at all times. Sounds like a great society. Kind of like big brother only now we're big brother. Like I said in another thread, police and governments must be constantly high fiving over what technology has done to the mindset of the general public. Its turned the whole world into wannabe police.

As for wrongfully accused being vindicated as quickly as they were shamed? Bull ****ing ####.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I get where you are going with that, but isn't that what cases like this are? This is the public saying they do not find what Palmer did to be socially acceptable. It is a double-edged sword though.

The thing about public shaming isn't that it is a new phenomenon. It has been a standard tactic to enforce cultural and societal norms for most of human history. But as the world grows smaller, the power of such shaming increases. And with the internet and social media, the world has grown very small. Society is still adapting to this.

Ultimately, I don't see any real likelihood of the public turning against the idea of public shaming. It's just too ingrained. Mostly, I think society will eventually settle on what issues warrant shaming, and what don't.

Great posts, guys... takes away a little from the lion poaching topic, but not sure what else needs to be said.

Bullying and public shaming on CP definitely happens, I see it every day on here with things like the "Thanks" button for a drive by comment (See: ricardo or puckluck.) Its happened here, and everywhere on the internet, for decades.

As Resolute says.. the public will just settle on what issues warrant shaming, and what doesn't. Also people will soon learn there is no such thing as anonymity these days, esp on FB/Twatter/etc. You just have to accept the fact that you have to be careful what you say or do. Even on CP, if you have too strong of an opinion that is not popular, holy hell will you get shamed and bullied like crazy.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by East Coast Flame

...but it is illegal? The pair who ran the hunting company have been charged with poaching and the dentist could be as well.

That's good! The law will take care of it then.

[East Coast Flame]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

That's good! The law will take care of it then.

How is the law going to take care of it for the American dentist who will never set foot in Zimbabwe again and never have to worry about being extradited?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The internet is shaming this guy because he's rich and in the other incident, shaming the girl because she's hot.

Really? Are you sure it's not because they are murdering lions for nothing but a head to put on their wall?

I'm not sure it would be any different if Cecil was killed by a coal miner or an ugly girl (as subjective as that is).

In fact, I would expect LESS backlash for a hot girl doing stupid things.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by flameswin

"Yeah state punishments are okay and all, but we found this new thing where we can just end someone's life as they know it when we come across something we don't agree with on our facebook feeds. So we're just going to do that from now on".

I think the difference in this situation is that he likely won't face any state punishments. This is actually where public-shaming comes in handy, in cases where authorities can't or won't act but where consequences are necessary, not only for the sake of justice, but for the purpose of deterring perpetrator and others from repeating the acts.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The internet is shaming this guy because he's rich and in the other incident, shaming the girl because she's hot.

Well being rich is part of why he's able to go on these hunts. Strangely most people don't have $54,000 kicking around they can just throw at an African Safari hunt and be just fine. So I'm not sure it's specifically cause he's rich, though a rich person is the only one who could afford this hunt.

The girl being hot is why she's relevant, not why she was shamed. I mean that's pretty much her MO for attention, I'm hot AND I hunt. Obviously wants to attract every horny hunter (so...every hunter). But if an ugly girl had the same pictures, the outrage would be the same. People just find the act disgusting and purely done for pride and ego. About as selfish as it gets really.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Sure go for it. That's for laws to decide. Not me. I support countries like ours trying to change laws and governments of countries to protect 12 year olds through educational programs, charities, UNICEF etc.., rather than go after the individuals themselves.

Well, no, laws don't determine what is or isn't moral. I think you can usually assume that a law has the force of right on its side, but obviously history has shown that isn't always the case and it isn't the case here. In other words, it's not the final word.

I'd actually say the internet is "shaming" them because they did something really ####ty. Legal or not.

Yup. I have no problem with calling people out but I'm just becoming concerned at the sheer scale of it and the complete inability to control the consequences. Karma's fine, but if you can't match the punishment to the crime, then it becomes a crime unto itself.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think the difference in this situation is that he likely won't face any state punishments. This is actually where public-shaming comes in handy, in cases where authorities can't or won't act but where consequences are necessary, not only for the sake of justice, but for the purpose of deterring perpetrator and others from repeating the acts.

There are lots of cases like this where individuals go unpunished, and the state declining to act (or there being no law in place) does not somehow give license to the public to act in a gap-filling role. It's not my right nor yours, sitting behind a computer screen, to mete out life-destroying "justice" to human beings because we, in our subjective wisdom, have decided that it's "necessary" in this case.

The counter example that gives me major hesitation is Cosby. I don't know, maybe he's the exception because I can't conceive of any degree of punishment for him that this social justice machine could manage that I would consider excessive... those cases are rare. I think more likely the right answer is we just have to bite the bullet on those, because systemically, this trend is awful for society.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Really? Are you sure it's not because they are murdering lions for nothing but a head to put on their wall?

I'm not sure it would be any different if Cecil was killed by a coal miner or an ugly girl (as subjective as that is).

In fact, I would expect LESS backlash for a hot girl doing stupid things.

These must be big businesses though. The dentist isn't the only guy in the past year to do this. Where's the hubbub about the others? Why this one?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Well, no, laws don't determine what is or isn't moral. I think you can usually assume that a law has the force of right on its side, but obviously history has shown that isn't always the case and it isn't the case here. In other words, it's not the final word.

I don't determine it either so the law is the best we have. I can support charities to hopefully change laws, build schools etc...

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

These must be big businesses though. The dentist isn't the only guy in the past year to do this. Where's the hubbub about the others? Why this one?

I think its because of the actual Lion that he killed. Its like he went in and killed a community pet.

And then gloated over it.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

For the most part, "internet shaming" is just people expressing their opinion, and there is nothing wrong with that. That freedom of expression has limits. Defamation and uttering threats should not be OK under any circumstances.

In this case, people stating that they think this dentist is an a$$hat and shouldn't be supported, is perfectly legitimate. People can and should vote with their feet. If this dentist ends up losing customers, how can he complain?

Who knows, he may have the market cornered on wealthy, gun-toting trophy hunters. That may be very lucrative in that part of the world, and those folks have every right to choose this guy as their dentist.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

These must be big businesses though. The dentist isn't the only guy in the past year to do this. Where's the hubbub about the others? Why this one?

Because the lion was an icon. Everyone knew who he was. Not to mention was being tracked for research, so they likely knew as soon as the collar was removed.

It is too bad that other, less "famous" lions have perished for the same reason, hopefully these types of campaigns bring light to it and help change things. The ill-effects of the people surrounding the dentist (family, employees, etc..) are potentially unfortunate, but if there's anything good about the public shaming, it's that word gets around and things, hopefully, change.

The only reason the girl was shamed was because she posted pictures of it on a public forum, opening herself up to the masses opinions. I think anyone who would do this and then post it like that would be equally shamed.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Because the lion was an icon. Everyone knew who he was. Not to mention was being tracked for research, so they likely knew as soon as the collar was removed.

It is too bad that other, less "famous" lions have perished for the same reason, hopefully these types of campaigns bring light to it and help change things. The ill-effects of the people surrounding the dentist (family, employees, etc..) are potentially unfortunate, but if there's anything good about the public shaming, it's that word gets around and things, hopefully, change.

The only reason the girl was shamed was because she posted pictures of it on a public forum, opening herself up to the masses opinions. I think anyone who would do this and then post it like that would be equally shamed.

The girl was a whole other social experiment.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

That's good! The law will take care of it then.

hahahahhaha

African law.....that's a good one.