Hope and Dispair in the ME

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Something lost on us westerners is the rhetorical nature of the Arab communication style. They use a lot of metaphors and overstatements in their communication. Sure, Hizbollah and Iran and any other power in the Middle East may have said that Israel should be wiped from the earth, but I doubt that is the literal expectation. I think if you use the Arab rhetoric-to-english dictionary you'll find that "wiping them from the earth" is equivalent to a "crushing defeat". Its kind of like when you pants the local bully in gym class and he states he's "going to kill you." He's not really going to kill you, but the rhetoric sure scares the hell out of you.

Lanny, it is clear that this is EXACTLY what they want, it says so in their manifesto.

Hezbollah's founding primary aim is resistance against the occupation of Lebanon by Israel, which Lebanon government claims it continuous up to now. From the inception of the organization to the present the elimination of the state of Israel has been Hezbollah's primary goal.


Secretary-General Nasrallah’s has stated that “Israel is an illegal usurper entity, which is based on falsehood, massacres, and illusions.”, and considers that the elimination of Israel will bring peace in the middle east: "There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel." In an interview with the Washington Post, Nasrallah said "I am against any reconciliation with Israel. I do not even recognize the presence of a state that is called "Israel." I consider its presence both unjust and unlawful. That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle.".

Or was he just misunderstood?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Reports from most major news agencies say that Hezbollah provides more than what you're suggesting (strict support for their military cause). CNN had a story 2 nights ago about how Hezbollah was basically the only provider of any kind of public/social services in southern Lebanon. Unless everyone in southern Lebanon is a Hezbollah fighter...

I'm not saying that makes them good or bad, I'm just saying that what you're putting out there is false. They do more than educate and send off suicide bombers (or so says CNN, NYTimes, etc.).

The major reason why is hezbollah providing these “services” is their military cause. Of course by supporting non-militants (or families of non-militants) they gain public support. And after all, if these people are in need, they are in need because hezbollah infested their country and makes it impossible for those people to lead a normal life. hezbollah is not the cure to their social problems, it’s the cause.

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Holy twisting words batman! You're hilarious I often find myself using the word pitiful when regarding your philosophies. Why haven't you been around here with your anarcho-capitalist theories in the past few months? Been pretty quiet in your assaults against socialism, democracy, and the State lately...

Oh thank god your philosophies aren’t pitiful, neomarxist, always politically correct, tree hugging nonsense. You only make statements that look all rosy, fuzzy and great on the outside but are completely out to lunch when you rationally analyze them.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

The major reason why is hezbollah providing these “services” is their military cause. Of course by supporting non-militants (or families of non-militants) they gain public support. And after all, if these people are in need, they are in need because hezbollah infested their country and makes it impossible for those people to lead a normal life. hezbollah is not the cure to their social problems, it’s the cause.

No one said they were the 'cure to southern Lebanon's social problems'. It was stated, however, that Hezbollah, in the absence of the Lebanese government, provides these services to non-Hezbollah civilians. You said something very, very different than that. Glad to see you're righting your own ship.

Oh thank god your philosophies aren’t pitiful, neomarxist, always politically correct, tree hugging nonsense. You only make statements that look all rosy, fuzzy and great on the outside but are completely out to lunch when you rationally analyze them.

Hilarious! My philosophies are completely out to lunch? Why don't you go ahead and spell out your treatise for all to see then? Please, by all means, show us why Democracy and the State are the two biggest evils of our time. I'm sure many will find anarcho-capitalism as the way to go, and scoff at Democracy...

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Something lost on us westerners is the rhetorical nature of the Arab communication style. They use a lot of metaphors and overstatements in their communication. Sure, Hizbollah and Iran and any other power in the Middle East may have said that Israel should be wiped from the earth, but I doubt that is the literal expectation. I think if you use the Arab rhetoric-to-english dictionary you'll find that "wiping them from the earth" is equivalent to a "crushing defeat". Its kind of like when you pants the local bully in gym class and he states he's "going to kill you." He's not really going to kill you, but the rhetoric sure scares the hell out of you.

This is a very good point and while living overseas for awhile I can sympathize with what your saying. There is definitely a large communicative gap between our cultures (broadly speaking, Western and Middle Eastern).

The one thing I will say, however, is that there is a difference between communicative breakdowns in natural human misunderstanding and the outcrying in a PUBLIC and POLITICAL forum and context in which the leader of a nation states those desires for the destruction for the Jewish RACE (this is for the guy who was inclining that a religion isn't a race. Well.... if you'll look in the Oxford English Dictionary at the term race, it does encompass religion).

The leader of Iran is intelligent enough to understand what he is saying, and how it will be received, and you know that.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Lanny, it is clear that this is EXACTLY what they want, it says so in their manifesto.

Or was he just misunderstood?

Alrighty then, so we are to take the Hizbollah manifesto as gospel, but not the PNAC's manifesto? Intertesting double standard.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

You cant be serious. Their aim - the destruction of Israel is written in hezballah manifesto and in their political program. It cant get any more literal than that. Iran, their master, has the same goal - money and weapons to boot. Both share the same apocalyptic religious views (see hidden imam in shia religion). They are serious. Denying that is simply burying your head in sand.

And the PNAC were calling for the destruction of Iraq (which they have done a pretty damn good job at btw). I think hizbollah is focused on getting their lands back and seeing what they feel the illegal state of Israel sent packing. They are not calling for the extermination of Jews like some here are trying to make people believe, they want the region to revert back to what it was prior to the UN creation of Israel. It's funny, but YOU of all people should be behind thaat premise. The region was completely disrupted so the Jewish homeland could be created againstt he wishes of those who lived there. Where's you're anti-government bull**** now?

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

And the PNAC were calling for the destruction of Iraq (which they have done a pretty damn good job at btw). I think hizbollah is focused on getting their lands back and seeing what they feel the illegal state of Israel sent packing. They are not calling for the extermination of Jews like some here are trying to make people believe, they want the region to revert back to what it was prior to the UN creation of Israel. It's funny, but YOU of all people should be behind thaat premise. The region was completely disrupted so the Jewish homeland could be created againstt he wishes of those who lived there. Where's you're anti-government bull**** now?

You honestly don't believe they trying to exterminate Israel?

[Bingo]

Former Iranian President Ayatollah Hashemi Rafsanjani, a guy still very deeply involved in Iran ...

“If one day ... Of course, that is very important. If one day, the Islamic world is also equipped with weapons like those that Israel possesses now, then the imperialists' strategy will reach a standstill because the use of even one nuclear bomb inside Israel will destroy everything. However, it will only harm the Islamic world. It is not irrational to contemplate such an eventuality. Of course, you can see that the Americans have kept their eyes peeled and they are carefully looking for even the slightest hint that technological advances are being made by an independent Islamic country. If an independent Islamic country is thinking about acquiring other kinds of weaponry, then they will do their utmost to prevent it from acquiring them. Well, that is something that almost the entire world is discussing right now”.

and ...

"Jews shall expect to be once again scattered and wandering around the globe the day when this appendix is extracted from the region and the Muslim world", Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani warned, blaming on the United States and Britain the "creation of the fabricated entity" in the heart of Arab and Muslim world.

Doesn't sound all that political to me.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

You honestly don't believe they trying to exterminate Israel?

Exterminate is a stupid word to use. Exterminate is used on a life form, not a political construct. Using that term inidicates that you feel Arabs want to see all Jews killed, which is a massive falacy. They want to see the political construct that is Israel destroyed, not the people itself. They want the region to go back to the way it was prior to 1948. Big difference.

I can't say as I blame them. All you have to do is look at how emotional people in Canada get when the Quebec separatist issue rears its ugly head. Imagine if the UN came in and forced that political decision on Canadians. How do you think the people would feel there? How do you think Canadians would react to their oppressed kin?

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Exterminate is a stupid word to use. Exterminate is used on a life form, not a political construct. Using that term inidicates that you feel Arabs want to see all Jews killed, which is a massive falacy. They want to see the political construct that is Israel destroyed, not the people itself. They want the region to go back to the way it was prior to 1948. Big difference.

I can't say as I blame them. All you have to do is look at how emotional people in Canada get when the Quebec separatist issue rears its ugly head. Imagine if the UN came in and forced that political decision on Canadians. How do you think the people would feel there? How do you think Canadians would react to their oppressed kin?

Arabs don't want the destruction of all Jews but extremists sincerely do and you know it- even with the existance of a lack of understanding. They also want not only just the political construct of Israel gone but the people themselves- and this is because of the Jewish religion in itself- which is thought of by Arab extremists as wrong and therefore inferior. I would agree with you if the leader of Iran didn't say what he did.

Your right, Canadians would feel villified if the U.N. came in and started setting up camp, telling people what to do. But extreme Quebecers (if there is such a thing) didn't stand up and ask for the annihilation of Canada or its people right?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Arabs don't want the destruction of all Jews but extremists sincerely do and you know it- even with the existance of a lack of understanding. They also want not only just the political construct of Israel gone but the people themselves- and this is because of the Jewish religion in itself- which is thought of by Arab extremists as wrong and therefore inferior. I would agree with you if the leader of Iran didn't say what he did.

Your right, Canadians would feel villified if the U.N. came in and started setting up camp, telling people what to do. But extreme Quebecers (if there is such a thing) didn't stand up and ask for the annihilation of Canada or its people right?

Sorry, but your interpretation of matters sucks. If Ahmadinejad felt that way about Jews he would be rounding them up in Iran and exterminating them. People are still allowed to practice what ever religion they wish in Iran, they must just abide by Islamic law. I still contend, and believe, that Arabs just want their land back and would live with Jews in peace if the Israel as a country ceased to exist. The UN made a mistake when they created Israel to appease the Jews as it alienated the other peoples who had lived there for thosands of years. Right that wrong and you have a lasting peace IMO.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Alrighty then, so we are to take the Hizbollah manifesto as gospel, but not the PNAC's manifesto? Intertesting double standard.

Way to try and deflect the issue.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

I think hizbollah is focused on getting their lands back and seeing what they feel the illegal state of Israel sent packing. They are not calling for the extermination of Jews like some here are trying to make people believe, they want the region to revert back to what it was prior to the UN creation of Israel.

When others say that Hezbollah wants to wipe Israel from the map its a misunderstanding due to rhetoric... but when you say "Israel sent packing" it's not? It's the same thing!

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Exterminate is a stupid word to use. Exterminate is used on a life form, not a political construct. Using that term inidicates that you feel Arabs want to see all Jews killed, which is a massive falacy. They want to see the political construct that is Israel destroyed, not the people itself. They want the region to go back to the way it was prior to 1948. Big difference.

Uh huh. I'd take that one step further. They want to see the country of Israel removed from the earth, and don't care how many Jews they kill. You're giving them wayyyy too much benefit of the doubt.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Sorry, but your interpretation of matters sucks. If Ahmadinejad felt that way about Jews he would be rounding them up in Iran and exterminating them. People are still allowed to practice what ever religion they wish in Iran, they must just abide by Islamic law. I still contend, and believe, that Arabs just want their land back and would live with Jews in peace if the Israel as a country ceased to exist. The UN made a mistake when they created Israel to appease the Jews as it alienated the other peoples who had lived there for thosands of years. Right that wrong and you have a lasting peace IMO.

Does it? Or does it just not jive 100% with what your saying? Iran knows that rounding up Jews and exterminating them in concentration camps isn't exactly "peachy keen" with the West, who currently has nuclear capabilities.

As soon as Iran is able to get those capabilities- watch for it to start happening, because it definitely might, as Iran would then be able to (relatively) protect itself.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

And the PNAC were calling for the destruction of Iraq (which they have done a pretty damn good job at btw). I think hizbollah is focused on getting their lands back and seeing what they feel the illegal state of Israel sent packing. They are not calling for the extermination of Jews like some here are trying to make people believe, they want the region to revert back to what it was prior to the UN creation of Israel. It's funny, but YOU of all people should be behind thaat premise. The region was completely disrupted so the Jewish homeland could be created againstt he wishes of those who lived there. Where's you're anti-government bull**** now?

Prior to the creation of Israel countries like Lebanon did not exist. All the countries in that region were created in the 1940s. Lebanon was created specifically to be a homeland for christians. There are many people in the middle east besides arabs. Funny how oranizations like Hezbollah believe only arabs are entitlted to nation states though. Hezbollah doesnt want the region to revert to back the way it was. It wants to set up a fundamentalist *****e pan arab state. It states this quite clearly. If it wanted things to revert to the way they were in Lebanon they would be trying to set up a Christian state there, which is why lebanon was specifically created when originally it was part of the French mandate of Syria.

The region was completely disrupted by the jewish state? None of those states existed and no arabs would have been displaced if Israel hadnt been invaded on its inception.

[drp_69]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Former Iranian President Ayatollah Hashemi Rafsanjani, a guy still very deeply involved in Iran ...

“If one day ... Of course, that is very important. If one day, the Islamic world is also equipped with weapons like those that Israel possesses now, then the imperialists' strategy will reach a standstill because the use of even one nuclear bomb inside Israel will destroy everything. However, it will only harm the Islamic world. It is not irrational to contemplate such an eventuality. Of course, you can see that the Americans have kept their eyes peeled and they are carefully looking for even the slightest hint that technological advances are being made by an independent Islamic country. If an independent Islamic country is thinking about acquiring other kinds of weaponry, then they will do their utmost to prevent it from acquiring them. Well, that is something that almost the entire world is discussing right now”.

Bingo, I think it is quite difficult and pointless to argue a point with Lanny M as he discounts/dicredits most "western media" quotes, and now we are told that the Iranian PM does not really mean what he says, as it is 'lost in translation', and WE are at fault for taking him too literally.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Sorry, but your interpretation of matters sucks. If Ahmadinejad felt that way about Jews he would be rounding them up in Iran and exterminating them. People are still allowed to practice what ever religion they wish in Iran, they must just abide by Islamic law. I still contend, and believe, that Arabs just want their land back and would live with Jews in peace if the Israel as a country ceased to exist. The UN made a mistake when they created Israel to appease the Jews as it alienated the other peoples who had lived there for thosands of years. Right that wrong and you have a lasting peace IMO.

Yikes ...

I think you can hang on to your pro Palestine leanings in dealing with Israel without becoming an apologist for those that spew hatred. Why are you giving them the kid gloves?

Call a spade a spade ...

a leader can bemoan the political construct of Israel and the issues that said event has brought to his region without suggesting a nuclear bomb would end the country or that the holocaust was a myth, or that they should all be scattered around the world as vagrants.

That's all hatred all the time ... it's not a political issue at all.

The western equivelant rides horses with sheets over their heads, and I would never line up and suggest ... "ah the south, you have to live there to understand them. They don't really mean lynching".

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Sorry, but your interpretation of matters sucks. If Ahmadinejad felt that way about Jews he would be rounding them up in Iran and exterminating them. People are still allowed to practice what ever religion they wish in Iran, they must just abide by Islamic law. I still contend, and believe, that Arabs just want their land back and would live with Jews in peace if the Israel as a country ceased to exist. The UN made a mistake when they created Israel to appease the Jews as it alienated the other peoples who had lived there for thosands of years. Right that wrong and you have a lasting peace IMO.

This quote is nothing but pure intolerance. You know full well arabs did not control that region for thousands of years. I'm going to bring up the point again if arabs did not attack Israel on its indepedence day no arab would have ever been displaced.

Claiming that the best way towards peace is to eliminate one side is absolute garbage and doesnt represent peace at all.

Your also failing to take into account that about 2/3 of Israelis are of middle eastern (ie not european jews). Prior to the fall of the USSR it was about 80%, so dont try and play off the creation of Israel as European colinialists.

Your totally failing to realize facts on the ground. Israel is there and the people who live there are not going to lay down and die. The only way towards peace is for people to realize and accept that. Why would Isrealies chose to live as minorities under arab regimes that make it illegal to practice other religions openly?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yikes ...

I think you can hang on to your pro Palestine leanings in dealing with Israel without becoming an apologist for those that spew hatred. Why are you giving them the kid gloves?

Call a spade a spade ...

a leader can bemoan the political construct of Israel and the issues that said event has brought to his region without suggesting a nuclear bomb would end the country or that the holocaust was a myth, or that they should all be scattered around the world as vagrants.

That's all hatred all the time ... it's not a political issue at all.

The western equivelant rides horses with sheets over their heads, and I would never line up and suggest ... "ah the south, you have to live there to understand them. They don't really mean lynching".

I'm not trying to be an apologist any more than those who support Israel are being apologists. BOTH SIDES are wrong in their actions, but that does nothing to understand the root issue. The root issue is the oppression that the Arabs have felt and that oppression was intensified with the creation of Israel. That is the root cause of the matters in the Middle East IMO and that is the matter that needs to be addressed.

I like you're comparison to the Iranian comments, but I think something more accurate is this. The western equivalent runs non-profit religious organizations, has the freedom to make what ever comments about foreign policy they like, and has a pipeline to the White House because of the massive numbers of dollars they contribute to political parties. Times have changed, and the "new" Klan is dressing in three piece suits and is hiding behind the protection that religious and political insititutions give them.

[longsuffering]

With so many 'facts' being thrown about, I thought a little historical background might be in order.

From Wikipedia - admittedly not the best source but an apolitical one at least.

The Hezbollah is a Shia Islamist political party in Lebanon, comprising a militia and extensive front programs for social development. It was formed to combat the Israeli occupation following the 1982 invasion of Lebanon.

Now the famous Hezbollah manifesto:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_Manifesto

What does it say? How many have bothered to read it?

In a single night the Israelis and the Phalangists executed thousands of our sons, women and children in Sabra and Shatilla. No international organization protested or denounced this ferocious massacre in an effective manner, a massacre perpetrated with the tacit accord of America's European allies, which had retreated a few days, maybe even a few hours earlier, from the Palestinian camps.

We have no alternative but to confront aggression by sacrifice. A hundred thousand victims - this is the approximate balance sheet of crimes committed by them and by the US against us. Almost half a million Muslims were forced to leave their homes. The Zionist occupation then launched its usurpatory invasion of Lebanon in full and open collusion with the Phalanges.

• To the Christians

If you were deceived and misled into believing that we anticipate vengeance against you - your fears are unjustified. For those of you who are peaceful, continue to live in our midst without anybody even thinking to trouble you.
We don't wish you evil. We call upon you to embrace Islam so that you can be happy in this world and the next. If you refuse to adhere to Islam, maintain your ties with the Muslims and don't take part in any activity against them. Free yourselves from the consequences of hateful confessionalism. Banish from your hearts all fanaticism and parochialism. Open your hearts to our Call (da'wa) which we address to you.


The manifesto does call for the destruction of Israel. Why? Is it because of simple hatred of the Zionists? I don't think so, not if you read it in context.

• The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel

We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.
Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

I'm not supporting Hezbollah's tactics. I'm trying to add some perspective to those who see it as a black and white issue. If you believed that your neighbour entered your land, slaughtered your people, stole their land and is intent on expansion, what would YOU do?

If you haven't made up your mind by now, and I doubt anyone's mind has been changed, read the The Electoral Program of Hezbollah. Pretty radical stuff including:

A just and balanced electoral system that treats all the Lebanese even-handedly, allows for real representation, and leads towards developing the Lebanese political status through the approbation of Lebanon as one constituency with a proportional representation system.

The chronic demand of enhancing and reforming public schooling has not taken its implementation course seriously and effectively until today, therefore; it is vital to seek enhancing and developing public schooling, as schools, teachers and administrations. Furthermore, the development of the educational structure must be followed by the policy of reestablishing and modernizing the curriculums in harmony with the modern necessities, besides accomplishing the history book drafting on objective basis and working on increasing the interest in vocational education, taking into account the necessity of linking it to the Lebanese market needs.
Uplifting the Lebanese University is a vital demand that we will work on achieving through modernizing its curriculums, uniting the branches of the capital and the surrounding areas, enhancing the branches of the areas, reviving specialization scholarships and sponsoring topping students and strengthening research methods to get out of the currently-adopted dictation method and allow for developing talents and qualifications.


The woman's role is based on her being the other half that raises and is effective in all the political, educational, social, cultural and economical life. Women must not be treated as supplements nor as commodities of advertisement.

- Enhancing and maintaining the unity of the family that is the cornerstone in building a good society and providing all the educational and social conditions to establish this direction.

- The completion of resolving the two issues of naturalization and the displaced so as those who have the right to the nationality obtain it and all the displaced return to their houses or villages in dignity, plus giving the displaced of the occupied strip a special priority attention and consideration.

- Completing the task of improving public hospital and health clinics with the required equipment, spreading these health centers all over the country especially in remote areas and the steadfast and resisting areas in the South and West Bekaa, in addition to making health security accessible to all the sectors of the Lebanese society.

- Developing the social welfare foundations, supporting the social care institutions, adopting old-age pension, and establishing institutes specialized in treating the various social problems and perversions.

To work carefully and persistently on safeguarding public freedoms, i.e. the freedom of belief, freedom of syndical and political activity, freedom of practicing religious rituals and schooling, in addition to accomplishing the regulation of the media without abating the freedom of press, on one hand, but while preserving the maintenance of the identity, public ethics and morals on the other.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by blankall

This quote is nothing but pure intolerance. You know full well arabs did not control that region for thousands of years. I'm going to bring up the point again if arabs did not attack Israel on its indepedence day no arab would have ever been displaced.

Stuff the intolerance bull****. You're more intolerant of Arabs than I'll ever be of Jews, so spare me your rhetoric. Also, the Jews controlled the region in question? Not at ANY time in history prior to the UN creation of Israel did the Jews control the region, so again, spare me your rhetoric.

Claiming that the best way towards peace is to eliminate one side is absolute garbage and doesnt represent peace at all.

Wow, you're pretty quick. Hence the return to what the region once was, not what it has been turned into, which appeals to only the one side.

Your also failing to take into account that about 2/3 of Israelis are of middle eastern (ie not european jews). Prior to the fall of the USSR it was about 80%, so dont try and play off the creation of Israel as European colinialists.

Who said anything about European colonialism? Never entered into the picture. The UN created the problem, not Europe, although Europe played a very big part in the process.

Your totally failing to realize facts on the ground. Israel is there and the people who live there are not going to lay down and die. The only way towards peace is for people to realize and accept that. Why would Isrealies chose to live as minorities under arab regimes that make it illegal to practice other religions openly?

What about the Palestinians who were there before the creation of Israel? What about them? Don't they count? It was okay to force them to do something they didn't want to do, but demanding the Jews do the same thing is wrong? Wow, and you have the balls to speak of intolerance?