[Trade] Canucks acquire B. Sutter + 3rd for Bonino, Clendening, + 2nd. UPD: Sutter signed.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

I'd take sutter over bonino any day.

To me it's like comparing Raymond to Bouma. One guy is a way more valuable player and it's not even close.

How is it not close? Look at Sutter's scoring numbers on the Penguins. They're pathetic. He's played full seasons for each of the past 5 years and his career high is 33 points.

This actually illustrates it better: since joining Pit, he's played 3 seasons on one of the more offensively talented squads in the league, and out of 303 players who have averaged at least 500 even strength minutes, he's 268th in points per 60 minutes of ice time. Right ahead of Marcel Goc.

PS - Nick Bonino is 66th over that stretch, a few places ahead of Daniel and Henrik Sedin. And for those saying "yeah, but Perry and Getzlaf", Corey Perry was Bonino's 15th most common even strength linemate in 2013-2014, Getzlaf was 18th. The year before, 18th and 21st. He didn't play with them at evens.

This is just... bad. Awful, really. Exactly what you'd come to expect from Benning. What a goof.

[Canada 02]

If Bonino is a few places ahead of the Sedins, does that make him a better hockey player than the twins, or does that suggest the stat does not really show who is a better player?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

If Bonino is a few places ahead of the Sedins, does that make him a better hockey player than the twins, or does that suggest the stat does not really show who is a better player?

There is no such thing as a hockey stat that shows "who is a better player". That stat shows who has produced more points at even strength over the past 3 years, adjusted for ice time. In other words, it shows exactly what I said it showed. It also implies that the Sedins, at this stage, get a large chunk of their (still top-end) production on the power play, but you'd need to look at a bunch of other stuff to confirm that (hint: if you did, it would confirm that).

In any event, the disparity should make it pretty obvious that Brandon Sutter is a much less effective offensive player than Bonino, and that giving up a pick and a prospect and about $1.5M in cap space and a year of contract for him is laughable.

[dammage79]

I liked Sutter. Sad that I have to hate him now. Fancy stats call Bonino better but I think Sutter is better. Bonino's been fed some top line mates and Sutter's been buried under the wonder twins in Pitt and was actually pretty good in CAR when he was their #2 in 09-10. Best productive season.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

There is no such thing as a hockey stat that shows "who is a better player". That stat shows who has produced more points at even strength over the past 60 minutes, adjusted for ice time. In other words, it shows exactly what I said it showed. It also implies that the Sedins, at this stage, get a large chunk of their (still top-end) production on the power play, but you'd need to look at a bunch of other stuff to confirm that.

In any event, the disparity should make it pretty obvious that Brandon Sutter is a much less effective offensive player than Bonino, and that giving up a pick and a prospect and about $1.5M in cap space and a year of contract for him is laughable.

More likely, and this is why you can't just look at stats

is this comes from playing against much lesser competition than Daniel and Henrik Sedin (and other top liners) do every night

last year Sean Monahan was 150th at pts/60 min, Gaudreau was 115th, Lance Bouma was 68th!, Alex Ovechkin was 107th

you can't cherry pick stats like that which dont tell the whole story or should Lance Bouma be getting top line minutes in Calgary ahead of Monahan and Gaudreau?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I liked Sutter. Sad that I have to hate him now. Fancy stats call Bonino better but I think Sutter is better. Bonino's been fed some top line mates and Sutter's been buried under the wonder twins in Pitt and was actually pretty good in CAR when he was their #2 in 09-10. Best productive season.

Will his linemates be any better in Van?

Sedins likely get Vrbata.

After that there isn't going to be much left for Sutter/Horvat. Higgins? Burrows? Baertschi?

Bonino might have it great in Pittsburgh. Could get decent wingers, and with the recent addition of Fehr his line might take the tougher defensive matchups.

Also think Clendenings skills will be a better fit in the East.

[d_phaneuf]

Sutter's most common linemates the last two years are Steve Downie, Beau Bennett, Nick Spalling, and Tanner Glass

Bonino's are Chris Higgins, Kyle Palmieri, Radim Vrbata, and Alex Burrows

one of those groups is not like the other, one of them has wingers who can score and drive possession, so I wonder if that has an effect on how each center looks?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

More likely, and this is why you can't just look at stats is this comes from playing against much lesser competition than Daniel and Henrik Sedin (and other top liners) do every night

Stats can actually quantify quality of competition too...

http://www.hockeyabstract.com/playerusagecharts

At least last year, you're wrong. At evens, Bonino got worse zone starts against roughly equal competition.

last year Sean Monahan was 150th at pts/60 min, Gaudreau was 115th, Lance Bouma was 68th!, Alex Ovechkin was 107th you can't cherry pick stats like that which dont tell the whole story or should Lance Bouma be getting top line minutes in Calgary ahead of Monahan and Gaudreau?

Bouma's p/60 was 1.97 last year. That's quite good. The previous 3 seasons it was 1.05, .7, an .64. So either you think he suddenly got much, much better at producing offense 5 on 5, or he probably produced at a higher level than his actual skill last year, and is due to return to Earth this season, as guys do every single year.

Which is why you usually want to look over several years to assess performance.

This is why I don't post in this forum hardly at all. A lot of you guys try to just tear down evidence without even attempting to understand the context, or worse, dismissing it. Everything must be treated as if it's a sham if there's a number attached to it. It's like talking to anti-vaccination people. The ES p/60 numbers over 3 years, even if you think there are error bars on them, are SO significantly different - Bonino near the top of the league, Sutter near the bottom, over multiple years - that the conclusion should be obvious to anyone who isn't inclined to reject the methodology out of hand. Which, go nuts, I guess. All I can do is give you the data.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

That stat shows who has produced more points at even strength over the past 3 years, adjusted for ice time.

Maybe it needs to be adjusted again because it leads to some silly insinuations. Like that Bonino is a better even strength producer than the Sedins.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Stats can actually quantify quality of competition too...

http://www.hockeyabstract.com/playerusagecharts

At least last year, you're wrong. At evens, Bonino got worse zone starts against roughly equal competition.


Bouma's p/60 was 1.97 last year. That's quite good. The previous 3 seasons it was 1.05, .7, an .64. So either you think he suddenly got much, much better at producing offense 5 on 5, or he probably produced at a higher level than his actual skill last year, and is due to return to Earth this season, as guys do every single year.

Which is why you usually want to look over several years to assess performance.

This is why I don't post in this forum hardly at all. A lot of you guys try to just tear down evidence without even attempting to understand the context, or worse, dismissing it. Everything must be treated as if it's a sham if there's a number attached to it. It's like talking to anti-vaccination people. The ES p/60 numbers over 3 years, even if you think there are error bars on them, are SO significantly different - Bonino near the top of the league, Sutter near the bottom, over multiple years - that the conclusion should be obvious to anyone who isn't inclined to reject the methodology out of hand. Which, go nuts, I guess. All I can do is give you the data.

comparing it to Anti-vac.................................. I can't even start

I am not dismissing numbers, just pointing out, you can't look at P/60 which in general is a good stat, without looking at the metrics surrounding it and what led to it.

People don't need to take one stat as gospel, that's why there are so many

its the same as two people can watch a player and come away with different ideas of what kind of player it is

it's not baseball where each play can be segmented and tracked, it's a game with flow

a 1st assist can be created 30 seconds earlier by someone breaking up a pass etc. just giving 1 stat doesn't prove anyone is significantly better.

Nick Bonino put up more p/60 than Brandon Sutter, no one is arguing that, the question is why did he?

Did he have better linemates? create more chances? etc. etc. etc.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by saillias

Maybe it needs to be adjusted again because it leads to some silly insinuations. Like that Bonino is a better even strength producer than the Sedins.

Here is literally the only insinuation: Bonino has produced at a higher rate at even strength over the past 3 seasons than the Sedins. That is, quite simply, a fact.

[cofias]

Originally Posted by saillias

Maybe it needs to be adjusted again because it leads to some silly insinuations. Like that Bonino is a better even strength producer than the Sedins.

The stat isn't "insinuating" anything, it is literally saying that Bonino produces more even-strength points per ice time than the Sedins. Because he does.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Will his linemates be any better in Van?

Sedins likely get Vrbata.

After that there isn't going to be much left for Sutter/Horvat. Higgins? Burrows? Baertschi?

Bonino might have it great in Pittsburgh. Could get decent wingers, and with the recent addition of Fehr his line might take the tougher defensive matchups.

Also think Clendenings skills will be a better fit in the East.

If I were to guess:

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Baertschi - Horvat - Vrbata
Higgins - Sutter - Hansen
Prust - Vey - Dorsett

(with Burrows and Vrbata being interchangeable)

The Sedins better have a hell of a year

[TX_Flame]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Pens freed up room to sign Fehr with this move. I wonder who will be there #3 centre, Bonino or Fehr.

Hay ewe! It's their knot there!

[skeena1]

Originally Posted by Blarg

I thought Vancouver was looking for cap space to sign baerchi, now their taking on salary and re-signing?

Baertschi is signed. One year one way.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Tells me that first round series loss to the Flames is still very much on their minds. The Canucks have re-signed Dorsett, added Prust and now a Sutter up the middle.

All about getting some jam into their lineup

Out of all the Sutter's Brandon might be the softest, good pk but not much "jam"

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by skeena1

Baertschi is signed. One year one way.

http://www.tsn.ca/canucks-re-sign-ba...-deal-1.337510

[Parallex]

Ha Ha... Stupid Canucks.

Pittsburgh got the better player (marginally), the better draft pick, and a free Clendening.

[firecenter]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Ha Ha... Stupid Canucks.

Pittsburgh got the better player (marginally), the better draft pick, and a free Clendening.

Lets not let our hate bias effect our judgement on players here. My gut is the intangibles of line matching ability, size, SKATING, character, and being younger beat out the more skilled Bonino in Vancouver's eyes. Our own team went a LONNGGGGG way this year with not a lot of "skilled" players. Lets not be hypocrites.

Each team has needs, trading the same guy for the same guy doesnt improve anybody's team. RMBR, Vancouver obviously has a plan to sign Sutter long term as a part of their core, and perhaps they didnt like the long term fit of Bonino on their team for any number of reasons.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by firecenter

Lets not let our hate bias effect our judgement on players here. My gut is the intangibles of line matching ability, size, SKATING, character, and being younger beat out the more skilled Bonino in Vancouver's eyes. Our own team went a LONNGGGGG way this year with not a lot of "skilled" players. Lets not be hypocrites.

Each team has needs, trading the same guy for the same guy doesnt improve anybody's team. RMBR, Vancouver obviously has a plan to sign Sutter long term as a part of their core, and perhaps they didnt like the long term fit of Bonino on their team for any number of reasons.

I like(d) Sutter and do think he is a slight upgrade on Bonino, but only slight. I don't doubt he may have better intangibles, but the list of qualities above is overstated in my opinion. I mean he is 10 months younger, 2 inches taller and 6 lbs heavier.