Ontario debgt is twice that of California's

[CroFlames]

nm

[CaptainCrunch]

um what does this have to do with anything?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't know if the tax well in Ontario is deep enough for that.

With out of control utilities bills, They've already done tax increases in Ontario and added more consumption taxes for things like gas, liquor etc.

The taxpayer burden in that province is already close to the breaking point in terms of day to day living expenses.

Wynn is a terrible financial manager as was her predecessor, they've dug a hole that they can't really tax out of without doing some serious cancellations of their pet projects.

Or they can go to the feds for a bigger chunk of equalization.

Ontario is as badly run as Quebec was and now Quebec is forcing austerity measures.

While I agree Wynne is terrible... let's not get carried away here. Ontario's economy was drilled losing a boatload of manufacturing jobs during the recession.

Current plan is to balance the budget by 2017-18. They'll unload the crown corporations - which they have a bunch of - the main electricity providor, all of the liquor stores - to lower the debt.

[HOWITZER]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

While I agree Wynne is terrible... let's not get carried away here. Ontario's economy was drilled losing a boatload of manufacturing jobs during the recession.

Current plan is to balance the budget by 2017-18. They'll unload the crown corporations - which they have a bunch of - the main electricity providor, all of the liquor stores - to lower the debt.

This mentality still bewilders me to death. Just how is selling off the crown corporations that year-over-year rake in billions of dollars for the public purse and keeping the money pits that private enterprise don't want get you further ahead? Sure, it lowers your monthly/annual debt dues over the short term but you lose a significant chunk of your revenue stream. I just wonder if that is really worth it?

The real issue is waste. How much we waste in time, effort, pet projects, etc. I tell clients all the time that if you operated your personal finances like a government or fortune 500 company runs their own budget, you'd be broke in a week.

[Devils'Advocate]

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by HOWITZER

This mentality still bewilders me to death. Just how is selling off the crown corporations that year-over-year rake in billions of dollars for the public purse and keeping the money pits that private enterprise don't want get you further ahead? Sure, it lowers your monthly/annual debt dues over the short term but you lose a significant chunk of your revenue stream. I just wonder if that is really worth it?

The real issue is waste. How much we waste in time, effort, pet projects, etc. I tell clients all the time that if you operated your personal finances like a government or fortune 500 company runs their own budget, you'd be broke in a week.

I agree... although in some senses you do wonder if the government really should be owning or running these companies? Do we really need TV Ontario for example?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by HOWITZER

This mentality still bewilders me to death. Just how is selling off the crown corporations that year-over-year rake in billions of dollars for the public purse and keeping the money pits that private enterprise don't want get you further ahead? Sure, it lowers your monthly/annual debt dues over the short term but you lose a significant chunk of your revenue stream. I just wonder if that is really worth it?

The real issue is waste. How much we waste in time, effort, pet projects, etc. I tell clients all the time that if you operated your personal finances like a government or fortune 500 company runs their own budget, you'd be broke in a week.

Well in reality this was a huge reason that Alberta became debt free. We privatized all sorts of things in the 90's including the liquor stores just as Ontario is planning. Yes there were cuts as well, but that step shouldn't be missed by observers.

As far as how companies budget, I laugh about that all time. People who say they want governments to run like a business are not only romanticizing how they operate, but they are also embracing borrowing money. And of course people can't run their budget like a government because they don't have the power of taxation at their hands.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Slava

As far as how companies budget, I laugh about that all time. People who say they want governments to run like a business are not only romanticizing how they operate, but they are also embracing borrowing money. And of course people can't run their budget like a government because they don't have the power of taxation at their hands.

^

My hope for my government is to take on debt when times are bad, pay it back when times are good (ya I know, everyone thinks this)

If it has been 5 years straight of "bad" times and debt is still increasing, it is time to re-asses what a "good time" is, and raise income/cut your level of services.

Our government debts levels ideally to me would look like a sine wave, with small surpluses during the good times.

The key is, the debt has to be 100% paid off every x number of years, it is insane our governments don't do this. It is just nuts.

[CaptainCrunch]

Its not hard to see why Ontario is in the position it is, Wynne is pretty incompetant and very dishonest.

You look at the list of scandals and the bad spending decisions that she's made and its no wonder that Ontario is heading to a heavy crash.

As it stands I don't think that there is any more income that can be generated off of the tax payers and off of other standard tax revenues.

People will be paying for her mistakes for ever. On top of that she's going to find more ways to completely murder peoples abilities to make a living out there when she implements her pension and a carbon tax that will shoot straight for the end users wallet.

If there was a poster child for recalls of elected officials it would have Wynne's smiling face on it. She inherited bad, from her own party and somehow managed to make it worse.

Like I said, even Quebec has seen the end of the debt gravy train and is starting to reel back on their spending on shiny baubles.

[Slava]

Well there is a big difference for governments and corporations for that matter as compared to the average guy. They can basically plan to function in perpetuity whereas we kind of have a hard deadline. So for us to carry a mortgage at say 75 years of age is pretty crazy, the same wouldn't necessarily true for the government.

[Northendzone]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

while this is an interesting graph, don't you really need to limit it to the change in the debt from year to year to get a sense of how it changed under each premier's reign?

perhaps, TO should bid for an olymoic games as they can no more lose money than a man could ahve a baby

[V]

Yeah, geez, Bob Rae doubled the debt level over a five year term? That's terrifying.

[HOWITZER]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well in reality this was a huge reason that Alberta became debt free. We privatized all sorts of things in the 90's including the liquor stores just as Ontario is planning. Yes there were cuts as well, but that step shouldn't be missed by observers.

As far as how companies budget, I laugh about that all time. People who say they want governments to run like a business are not only romanticizing how they operate, but they are also embracing borrowing money. And of course people can't run their budget like a government because they don't have the power of taxation at their hands.

I don't dispute that in any way. However, we (AB) became debt-free by creating a large infrastructure gap that we are paying for now. For the better part of the 90s/2k we put-off needed projects in order to make the balance sheet look clean. All you're doing in that case is kicking the can further down the line.

Wynne is facing a somewhat similar issue, in that the provincial government neglected infrastructure investment for ever and is now trying to spend their way out of 70 years of poorly-managed public infrastructure. It won't work, especially when you're playing with someone else's money.

To be clear, I enjoyed Alberta being debt-free. Doing so gives the province the opportunity to make prudent investment in times of need and manage crises ahead of time. I would say though that there was still debt, it just wasn't measured in dollars.

What will be a struggle over the next generation is three levels of government that will attempt to cannibalize the others in order to balance their own budgets, as well as the effects of the baby-boomer generation retiring. Paying for pensions, social services, and whatnot for an ageing economic workforce is a serious conversation we aren't having, and will be a growing issue in the next decade as well.

[Azure]

Gotta think you have to cut entitlements for the boomers. Focus more on these in actual need, and getting them into the working class. There should also be new ways to generate tax revenue. Marijuana for one should be legalized and taxed. We need a carbon tax, possibly a sugar tax as well. Cut off subsidies, fix out of control healthcare spending. There are lots of options to look at.

Of course we are talking about none of them.

[MoneyGuy]

All that debt AND crumbling infrastructure. It's horrifying.

[cal_guy]

Ontario has the lowest per capita government spending of all the provinces and is among the lowest in provincial government workers per capita. Health care worker's wages are lower than the Canada's average, and teacher salaries are middle of the pack. It's not like here in Alberta that has a pretty clear-cut example of overspending.

[indes]

Seems like the logical progression of a tax and spend system to me. No one is going to catch up until we can tax and save/invest instead of immediately placating taxpayers (voters) with spending.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

Ontario has the lowest per capita government spending of all the provinces and is among the lowest in provincial government workers per capita. Health care worker's wages are lower than the Canada's average, and teacher salaries are middle of the pack. It's not like here in Alberta that has a pretty clear-cut example of overspending.

Yeah, but if you look at the Ontario spending habit, they just piss money away on stupidity that is mind boggling.

Someone here mentioned things like increasing revenues, and I agree on it to an extent, but things like Carbon Taxes are going to get trickled down to the people that can least afford it. If you look at things like utility costs in Ontario and the gas plant boondoggle. How costly the ornge scandal is.

The Ontario public service is incredibly bloated, I think I read somewhere that about 20% of the jobs in Ontario is in public service. During the election when Hudak lost it based on his comment that he would cut 100,000 public sector jobs, but after the election Wynne basically after ripping Hudak on the election trails pretty much agreed with him.

The bigger problem is the pay, especially at the top end.

It boggles my mind that on their sunshine list that 75% of the people that work for Ontario power generation make over $100,000. Hydro one had over 70%. That's not very much comfort to people who have seen their utilities skyrocket.

Ontario has a serious problem, and increasing taxes isn't going to solve it, and putting in a carbon tax that's going to be handed down to the consumer isn't going to solve it.

[cal_guy]

In 2011 20% of Ontario Jobs were in the Provincial and Local government and businesses compared to 16% here which is isn't much of a difference considering their larger breadth of government businesses.

On Hydro One: Hydro One is primarly a electrical distribution and transmission company (Ontario Power Generation is the main power generation company in Ontario) so if most of their employees are Powerline technicians than it's not unreasonable for most of their employees to have salary that are over $100,000.

And on Carbon Taxes: Any attempt to reduce Carbon emission will impose a cost on consumers regardless if done through a Carbon tax or through a Cap and Trade system or through regulation. However if you do it through a Carbon tax you give consumers the best visibility on the cost of Carbon. It also raise revenue so it offers a way to mitigate the impact on the most vulnerable.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

In 2011 20% of Ontario Jobs were in the Provincial and Local government and businesses compared to 16% here which is isn't much of a difference considering their larger breadth of government businesses.

I'd argue sliding scale here. Alberta with a population of 4 million would have at 16% 640,000 public sector workers. Ottawa with a population would have a civil service base of 2,720,000. Would you say that at the core there is a 4x requirement based on population size. I would even argue and a lot of have argued that Alberta's 16% is excessive because of inherent inefficiencies and bad employment strategies.


[QUOTE=cal_guy;5375265]On Hydro One: Hydro One is primarly a electrical distribution and transmission company (Ontario Power Generation is the main power generation company in Ontario) so if most of their employees are Powerline technicians than it's not unreasonable for most of their employees to have salary that are over $100,000.[/auote]

I have my doubts that most of the emplyees are powerline technicians. When you look at their collective bargaining average salaries increased by close to 50% between 1999 and 2011, I can't find anything that goes beyond that and really don't have time. If I read things right a base laborer makes about $60,000.00 per year for example, a clerical worker makes about 72,000 per year.

Originally Posted by cal_guy

And on Carbon Taxes: Any attempt to reduce Carbon emission will impose a cost on consumers regardless if done through a Carbon tax or through a Cap and Trade system or through regulation. However if you do it through a Carbon tax you give consumers the best visibility on the cost of Carbon. It also raise revenue so it offers a way to mitigate the impact on the most vulnerable.

Yes, your right, but who's it going to have the biggest impact on right now? Right now utility bills in Ontario are completely out of control, and tacking on more directly on top of it is going to be devastating to a lot of people, and especially lower income people.