Hope and Dispair in the ME

[HOZ]

Here is an interesting piece by a militrary historian, Victor Davis Hanson, in the NRO.

Hope Amid Despair?

Indeed, thanks to the unprofessional reporters abroad, and their disingenuous chiefs back home, the world never saw the killers who sent the rockets nor many of their civilian victims on the ground in Israel. Nor did the reporters apprise their audience of the different landscapes in which they worked: candor in Israel might win loud disagreement; truth in Lebanon meant death. It would be as if Reuters, AP, or the New York Times embedded its reporters within the Waffen SS, beaming daily reports back home about the great morale and noble suffering of the Wehrmacht as it advanced into the snowy Ardennes.

++++++++++
We hope, I hope that at least we all hope, that our leaders are not fooled so easily as some here.


Hezbollah like Nazis: Tory MP
Jason Kenney says the fact that Hezbollah has a politicial wing doesn't change the fact that it is a terrorist group dedicated to the eradication of Israel.


He says Germany in the 1930s had a political party which ran in elections and provided social services but it was also dedicated to violence against the Jewish people.


Kenney says that the decision by three opposition MPs — a Liberal, a New Democrat and a Bloc member — to visit Lebanon this week offers political legitimacy to Hezbollah.

[Flash Walken]

The same jason kenney who didn't think canada should honour nelson mandela because he was a 'communist'?

As long as we're talking about nazi's, maybe Kenney could also tell us about one of the first stains of facism, going about making organizations illegal in and of themselves while at the same time criminalizing their membership irregardless of any personal criminal history.

I think what gives hezbollah political legitimacy is their democratic popular support by a people of diverse ethnicity and religious affiliation within their own country.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Indeed, thanks to the unprofessional reporters abroad, and their disingenuous chiefs back home, the world never saw the killers who sent the rockets nor many of their civilian victims on the ground in Israel.

Can you ever stop being an *******?

At least 10 Lebanese civilians were killed for every Israeli civilian killed and you try and screw this into a Liberal anti-Israel bais?

I say thanks to the unprofessional (sic) reporters who risked their lives during the Israeli destruction of a country, otherwise we'd probably never really know about the loss of life on the Lebanese side.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Can you ever stop being an *******?

At least 10 Lebanese civilians were killed for every Israeli civilian killed and you try and screw this into a Liberal anti-Israel bais?

I say thanks to the unprofessional (sic) reporters who risked their lives during the Israeli destruction of a country, otherwise we'd probably never really know about the loss of life on the Lebanese side.

He's quoting the article that he linked prior.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think what gives hezbollah political legitimacy is their democratic popular support by a people of diverse ethnicity and religious affiliation within their own country.

The last thing I want is another personal insult battle with you, but does that alone give a group legitimacy?

A voter in any country may choose to vote for a party that gives them the best personal chance regardless of a distaste of their overall platform. Others are misinformed, others fear for their lives if they vote a different way. Heck Hussein had 100% results in elections in Iraq but was never legitimate.

I think a group that wants to eradicate a specific group of human beings can never truly be legitimate can they?

I'm not Lebanese, and I certaintly don't know all that goes into voting in that country, and perhaps Hezbollah provides more than just hatred, but it's pretty hard to look past the hatred isn't it?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

^^^^

I think you just proclaimed the majority of governments around the world as being illegitimate. I can't think of many governments that have not, at some time, wanted to wipe something from the face of the planet. Not too very long ago the United States wanted to wipe Communism from the face of the planet (they still do actually, but that's another story), so does that question the United States government's legitimacy? Just because you don't agree with their poliotics does not mean they are not a legitimate party for the people that wish them to be their representatives.

Easterners always thought the Reform Party was filled with racists and radicals that would destroy Canada. Were they right, or were the people in the west that knew the party best? How about the Bloc Quebequois? They have a pretty narrow focus and represent the wishes of the minority in their province, are they not legitimate?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The last thing I want is another personal insult battle with you, but does that alone give a group legitimacy?

A voter in any country may choose to vote for a party that gives them the best personal chance regardless of a distaste of their overall platform. Others are misinformed, others fear for their lives if they vote a different way. Heck Hussein had 100% results in elections in Iraq but was never legitimate.

Well, that really depends on your how you define legitimate. For example, I doubt many would refer to the rhino party as a legitimate party, and as such, they received very little support. On the other hand, a party like the Reform party was seen a legitimate party, even during their lowest periods of support, mainly because they still received a significant portion of the vote. Farmers for instance may have voted reform because they felt it would give them, "the best personal chance regardless," of any "distaste of their overall platform." Others may have just been misinformed. Others still, such as Sea-King Pilots or Submarine crew members may have voted reform, fearing for their lives.

Hell, it's likely a significant portion of Hezbollah votes were out of fear for their lives, but not fear of being punished, rather, fear that a weak Hezbollah would not be able to protect them from Israel.

Comparing the latest Lebanese elections to Iraqi elections under Hussein (or Bremmer) is absurd.

I think a group that wants to eradicate a specific group of human beings can never truly be legitimate can they?

I'm not Lebanese, and I certaintly don't know all that goes into voting in that country, and perhaps Hezbollah provides more than just hatred, but it's pretty hard to look past the hatred isn't it?

That all depends on whether you believe Hezbollah is actively seeking the outright destruction of the state of Israel. Personally, I don't.

I'm not lebanese either, but through research and self-education, I've come to know that Hezbollah provides much more than just 'hatred'. They provide social services, health care, education, housing, food, interest free loans etc etc etc, and are often the only means available to aquire those items. They also provide, as I mentioned earlier, the only effective means of maintaining lebanese sovereignty, an issue that binds all lebanese citizens, regardless of social, racial, or religious classification.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The same jason kenney who didn't think canada should honour nelson mandela because he was a 'communist'?

As long as we're talking about nazi's, maybe Kenney could also tell us about one of the first stains of facism, going about making organizations illegal in and of themselves while at the same time criminalizing their membership irregardless of any personal criminal history.

I think what gives hezbollah political legitimacy is their democratic popular support by a people of diverse ethnicity and religious affiliation within their own country.

Putting aside for a minute that Kenney is a complete a$$ and does about as much to further the political right cause in Canada as that jacktard from Lethbridge with the massive cowboy hat doesnt make the statement fales.

FACT: Lezbollah has called for the extermination of the Jewish race, if you support Lezbollah then you also supports its official positions.
FACT: Cartoons about Alllllllllllllllah (mis spelled on purpose) published in a Danish newspaper were condemed by the muslim world as racist and those who published them were called racists.
FACT: A Holocost celebration in Iran was cheered by every Arab country that doesnt have close ties to the US (Jordan, Egypt, etc) Hmm, interesting, you draw a cartoon and are called a racist, and if you cheer in the streets about the Holocost you are what - everyone who did that should be called a racist.

I am no Jewish supporter, nor am I a hater. What I know is this: 9/11 NY Terror Attacks, Bali Bombings, Beirut Marine Barracks, attmpeted beheading of Harper, attempted hijack of planes from Britian to the US werent done or proposed (trials still ongoing) to be done by Jewish people or it supporters.

There is only one race who has affected my life in a negative way and it was not the Jews, not the Africans, not the Asians, not the Spanish. Innocent people are just that innocent, people who cant defend themselves who support causes and work for those causes arent innocent. Political and military wings of a party are just that, wings - they are connected to the centre. I agree that in Western culture you vote for a party because you want to vote and a certain party has more issues that you support. This is can be the same in the ME so long as one party isnt calling for the extermination of an entire race of people.

MYK

[Bingo]

Lanny... Flesh ...

I don't think I disagree with either of you ... it's a tough line to draw in the sand and I'm not suggesting I know where it is.

I do think the hatred to eliminate over something like religion is a far cry than an ideological cold war between two superpowers, but I guess we all draw our lines where we must.

I haven't gone quote hunting but I've certainly had the feeling that Hezbollah wants to eliminate Israel, but I'll look into it. There seems to be a little smoke behind the fire that suggests they are directly funded by Iran which has been on record against Israel on numerous occasions so I would think they'd be healing to their leash.

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The same jason kenney who didn't think canada should honour nelson mandela because he was a 'communist'?

Close, that was Anders.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Here is an interesting piece by a militrary historian, Victor Davis Hanson, in the NRO.

Hope Amid Despair?

Indeed, thanks to the unprofessional reporters abroad, and their disingenuous chiefs back home, the world never saw the killers who sent the rockets nor many of their civilian victims on the ground in Israel. Nor did the reporters apprise their audience of the different landscapes in which they worked: candor in Israel might win loud disagreement; truth in Lebanon meant death. It would be as if Reuters, AP, or the New York Times embedded its reporters within the Waffen SS, beaming daily reports back home about the great morale and noble suffering of the Wehrmacht as it advanced into the snowy Ardennes.

++++++++++
We hope, I hope that at least we all hope, that our leaders are not fooled so easily as some here.

Yes, some of us are definitely fooled here.

For example, some of us would be fooled into believing what this guy says in the above paragraph. Others aren't fooled because we saw with our own eyes coverage of destruction in Israel, stories about bomb shelters in Israel, body counts of innocents in Israel, photos of destruction in Israel, a daily count of exactly how many rockets were fired into Israel. So when this fellow says "they didn't cover it", he's fooling people, because I saw it in the mainstream media.

I find it odd that he specifically mentions that they didn't film the killers firing the rockets. Why doesn't he volunteer for that job? It sounds pretty dangerous.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

Close, that was Anders.

Whoops, you're right.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Lanny... Flesh ...

I don't think I disagree with either of you ... it's a tough line to draw in the sand and I'm not suggesting I know where it is.

I do think the hatred to eliminate over something like religion is a far cry than an ideological cold war between two superpowers, but I guess we all draw our lines where we must.

I haven't gone quote hunting but I've certainly had the feeling that Hezbollah wants to eliminate Israel, but I'll look into it. There seems to be a little smoke behind the fire that suggests they are directly funded by Iran which has been on record against Israel on numerous occasions so I would think they'd be healing to their leash.

This post is confusing. I'm not really sure what you're saying.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This post is confusing. I'm not really sure what you're saying.

I just reread it and it makes sense to me ... want to narrow down your confusion issue or leave it at that?

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

FACT: A Holocost celebration in Iran was cheered by every Arab country that doesnt have close ties to the US (Jordan, Egypt, etc) Hmm, interesting, you draw a cartoon and are called a racist, and if you cheer in the streets about the Holocost you are what - everyone who did that should be called a racist.

I assume you're referring to Al-Quds day, right? While I don't agree with the Iranian stance on Israel, it's important to look at it for what it is and not attach inaccurate hyperbole to it. Al-Quds is a day in support of the Islamic liberation of Jerusalem; they still feel that Jeruselem should be an Islamic city, and the day is a protest to that belief. It's roots are in the revolution, and the overthrowing of the pro-western, pro-reform, Israel/US-backed Shah.
The same man who started that holiday (Ayatollah Khomenei) also issued a Fatwa protecting Jewish and Christian communities within Iran, clearly not the actions of someone who wants the extermination of the Jewish people. The official policy of Iran has been the elimination of Israel as a state, not the extermination of the Jewish as a people. Unquestionably, there are Iranians who celebrate the holocaust, and there are those who doubt that it happened. There are those who feel that exterminating the Israelis is the only way to achieve the goal of liberating Jerusalem. But they are in the minority in Iran. To suggest that all muslims who celebrate Al-Quds are racist... well, that's just misinformed and prejudiced.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I just reread it and it makes sense to me ... want to narrow down your confusion issue or leave it at that?

line in the sand?

I don't think anyone is debating that Iran funds hezbollah?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I haven't gone quote hunting but I've certainly had the feeling that Hezbollah wants to eliminate Israel, but I'll look into it. There seems to be a little smoke behind the fire that suggests they are directly funded by Iran which has been on record against Israel on numerous occasions so I would think they'd be healing to their leash.

Something lost on us westerners is the rhetorical nature of the Arab communication style. They use a lot of metaphors and overstatements in their communication. Sure, Hizbollah and Iran and any other power in the Middle East may have said that Israel should be wiped from the earth, but I doubt that is the literal expectation. I think if you use the Arab rhetoric-to-english dictionary you'll find that "wiping them from the earth" is equivalent to a "crushing defeat". Its kind of like when you pants the local bully in gym class and he states he's "going to kill you." He's not really going to kill you, but the rhetoric sure scares the hell out of you.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

There is only one race who has affected my life in a negative way and it was not the Jews, not the Africans, not the Asians, not the Spanish. Innocent people are just that innocent, people who cant defend themselves who support causes and work for those causes arent innocent.

MYK

So tell me which 'race' of people affected your life in a negative way. The Muslim 'race'? (Never mind that 'race' encompasses whites, arabs, africans, and asians) If your answer is yes, then its fair to say that you don't distinguish between one Muslim and another. Same ****, different pile for you is it? To quote lanny, you're a dittohead if you lump all muslims in the fantantical extremist category.

And it seems that I have to remind you that you can make the claim of which 'race' has or hasn't affected your life in a negative way because you don't live in Lebanon or the Palestinian territory. I'd venture to guess that thousands, if not tens of thousands of Innocent people who can't defend themselves either wouldn't compile the same list as you did and whose list of attrocities would rival yours.

That's a real global perspective you got going for you there.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

line in the sand?

I don't think anyone is debating that Iran funds hezbollah?

Probably because I was replying to both of you.

Lanny made the cold war comparison, I'm saying I agree that it is a tough line to determine between legitimate and not, but that I wouldn't make that comparison.

If you're funded by a country that does want to eradicate Israel isn't a pretty easy leap to suggest they too think the same?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Something lost on us westerners is the rhetorical nature of the Arab communication style. They use a lot of metaphors and overstatements in their communication. Sure, Hizbollah and Iran and any other power in the Middle East may have said that Israel should be wiped from the earth, but I doubt that is the literal expectation. I think if you use the Arab rhetoric-to-english dictionary you'll find that "wiping them from the earth" is equivalent to a "crushing defeat". Its kind of like when you pants the local bully in gym class and he states he's "going to kill you." He's not really going to kill you, but the rhetoric sure scares the hell out of you.

I think you're giving some pretty serious hate speech some over the top benefit of the doubt ... yikes.

if two countries are at war I expect them both to want to win. But if one group wants eliminate a race it's a completely different matter.

One is conflict. One is hate.