Apperantly you have not read anything previously posted. But ok, 44 million of Iran is under 30 years of age. The majority of them are liberal leaning, by Iranian definitions.
The "majority" still profess loyalty to the Ayatollahs... Ok, you are aware that if you do not profess loyalty, you will be imprisoned, killed, tortured...
Castro has massive support, so does Putin... So obviously those are the genuinely held ideals of those populations.
Will continue to be a struggle. I'm curious, would you move us back to isolating China, or the current method of not only engaging China, but making them a major economic partner?
Can you please point out where I said this would be easy? I have only said quite clearly that we have 2 options:
1. Sanctions, isolationism against Iran. Israel cheers!
2. Lifting sanctions, bringing Iran into the modern world.
If it takes a decade or a few, one clearly is the better solution. You made the point of Cuba being a modern place if ONLY we lifted sanctions.... But nope, Iran becoming a part of the modern diplomatic world is only going to hurt hardliner isolationists. You seem to agree with the worries of the right wing US politicians, usually that means you are on the wrong side of history..
Once again, I don't disagree that there are lots of young people in Iran. Unfortunately, it's a situation where religious people have far more children than non-religious people. So you have a situation where you have millions of young people living in cities who are educated and liberal. Unfortunately, they are outnumbered by the conservatives who are the vast majority of the population.
You also cannot judge Iranians based on the ones you meet in the West, as the ones you meet in the West are largely the ones who have fled the country or at the very least want to explore other nations/cultures. These are also the people who have access to twitter, facebook, etc..so basically, all we see is a small slice of Iranian society.
I'm not even professing to know the right way to deal with a situation like Iran: relations, war, sanctions, etc....My point is just that there is simple reason for why the Ayatollahs stay in power, and that reason is the majority of the Iranians are conservatives who support them as the religious leaders of the #####es.
We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one, as there is no way for either of us to prove people are liberal/conservative. However, I've been hearing about the Iranian liberal youth movement for decades. I've yet to see any results. Just more and more liberal people fleeing Iran.
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Once again, I don't disagree that there are lots of young people in Iran. Unfortunately, it's a situation where religious people have far more children than non-religious people. So you have a situation where you have millions of young people living in cities who are educated and liberal. Unfortunately, they are outnumbered by the conservatives who are the vast majority of the population.
Based on what statistics? What % of the population in Cuba are supporters of Castro and communism? What % of Russia are supporters of Putin?
Conservatives by what definition? Where are you getting these broad stroke claims.
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I'm not even professing to know the right way to deal with a situation like Iran: relations, war, sanctions, etc....My point is just that there is simple reason for why the Ayatollahs stay in power, and that reason is the majority of the Iranians are conservatives who support them as the religious leaders of the #####es.
Before the 1979 revolution, which was at its heart a revolution against a dictator. Iran was a western style nation. You keep saying the majority of Iranians are conservatives who support theocracy... By all means link to some statistics that back this up, keeping in mind, under a theocracy you can't exactly speak out against the ruling class, like in Cuba... like in Russia... like in China...
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We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one, as there is no way for either of us to prove people are liberal/conservative. However, I've been hearing about the Iranian liberal youth movement for decades. I've yet to see any results. Just more and more liberal people fleeing Iran.
The reason for the Iranian revolution are many, but ultimately like most western backed dictators, the rich and powerful flourished, while the vast majority of Iranians suffered. They found hope in a religious leader that promised a new and fair society.. Think of the modern pope, promoting populist ideals for his followers, but add in the resentment of western colonization and domination.
The shah before the Iranian revolution was seen as a corrupt leader, as a puppet of the west. Like with Cuba, where Castro was seen as a savior from Batista, the Iranians saw the same in Khomeini. But like Cuba, the young people see the modern theocratic government as being worse than the solution.
OK. A deal with America isn't a deal, they can't be trusted.
But, I still trust them more than Iran.
I'm far from Jewish or religious, I just can't trust a nation or people that slowly strangles their citizens to death in public for being gay, stones their citizens to death for being horny and publicly states they want to nuke another race of people from the face of the earth.
Sorry if I seem unreasonable to you.
You mean like Saudi Arabia? You are right, they can't be trusted. Let us declare sanctions and remove all ties with them.
Once again, I don't disagree that there are lots of young people in Iran. Unfortunately, it's a situation where religious people have far more children than non-religious people. So you have a situation where you have millions of young people living in cities who are educated and liberal. Unfortunately, they are outnumbered by the conservatives who are the vast majority of the population.
You also cannot judge Iranians based on the ones you meet in the West, as the ones you meet in the West are largely the ones who have fled the country or at the very least want to explore other nations/cultures. These are also the people who have access to twitter, facebook, etc..so basically, all we see is a small slice of Iranian society.
I'm not even professing to know the right way to deal with a situation like Iran: relations, war, sanctions, etc....My point is just that there is simple reason for why the Ayatollahs stay in power, and that reason is the majority of the Iranians are conservatives who support them as the religious leaders of the #####es.
We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one, as there is no way for either of us to prove people are liberal/conservative. However, I've been hearing about the Iranian liberal youth movement for decades. I've yet to see any results. Just more and more liberal people fleeing Iran.
Good post.
I'll give you the main reason for the bolded though...FEAR! Pretty much whole middle east is full of it.
You also cannot judge Iranians based on the ones you meet in the West, as the ones you meet in the West are largely the ones who have fled the country or at the very least want to explore other nations/cultures. These are also the people who have access to twitter, facebook, etc..so basically, all we see is a small slice of Iranian society..
Ah ok, so the refugees from Iran, we should not listen to them, cause clearly they have no idea what their society they left behind friends and family, is actually like.
Phew, thankfully you know better than them.
I mean those in the Arab spring with their twitter, clearly they had no clue what the reality of their society was like.
You mean like Saudi Arabia? You are right, they can't be trusted. Let us declare sanctions and remove all ties with them.
Thanks for bringing them up bud, if you do a quick search you'll see they are not on my Xmas list either. They are just as barbaric as Iran and probably even worst when it comes to human rights.
Thanks for bringing them up bud, if you do a quick search you'll see they are not on my Xmas list either. They are just as barbaric as Iran and probably even worst when it comes to human rights.
Its quite sad how you can't see allies in the religious world. Thankfully you are like the deep south red necks, you are on a the fringe, in this case, atheism. Don't call me "bud" you and I have atheism in common, nothing else.
Its about moving them from the spectrum of theocracy to democracy. From Dictatorship to freedom.
Its amazing you guys can't see how important this deal with Iran is, for all of us fighting to support the humanists, the atheists, the moderate religious, who all seek a free society with strong ties to the west.
Just keep in mind, as I said before you that are against this deal with Iran, are supporting the Republicans in the US.
Another Doc you should watch, if you have any desire to see how bad our dictator we supported hurt Iran, and was the cause the late 70's revolution...
Its quite sad how you can't see allies in the religious world. Thankfully you are like the deep south red necks, you are on a the fringe, in this case, atheism. Don't call me "bud" you and I have atheism in common, nothing else.
If you can be friends with someone that chops off your neighbors head in public for being a witch or a bad nanny... you are stronger than me "bud".
This has nothing to do with atheism.
Edit: And for the most part these "deep south red necks" you talk about are very religious.
What opinions are those? By all means, enlighten me on your solution to Iran, because clearly a treaty to stop them from becoming a nuclear nation is not a good idea.
Also wtf?
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If you can be friends with someone that chops off your neighbors head in public for being a witch or a bad nanny... you are stronger than me "bud".
I am a friend with someone that chops off my neighbors head in public?
Don't mind T@T, he has an irrational hate for anything regarding the Middle East and Muslims in general. Just go look at any other thread relating to the topic.
Don't mind T@T, he has an irrational hate for anything regarding the Middle East and Muslims in general. Just go look at any other thread relating to the topic.
And despite demonstrable ignorance, he acts knowledgeable. It's both infuriating and not worth engaging.
Outside of politics and religion he's quite alright
What opinions are those? By all means, enlighten me on your solution to Iran, because clearly a treaty to stop them from becoming a nuclear nation is not a good idea.
Holy fk, have you been drinking too much? all I said was I don't trust them, what's your opinion of what to do the first time they stop someone from investigating one of their many secret military bases?
Please get it threw your thick skull, Iran's leadership is bent on being the supreme power in the middle east, they have been fk'n around for years now with their delaying and BS, if you really trust that this weak assed Obama lead "treaty" will stop them I can't help you.
Don't mind T@T, he has an irrational hate for anything regarding the Middle East and Muslims in general. Just go look at any other thread relating to the topic.
Please don't make me look like a racist or I'll bitch slap you like your sister would.
Don't call me "bud" you and I have atheism in common, nothing else.
