[Rumour] Giordano Extension. Kypreos: Starting point is $72 million over 8 years

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Hugh Jahrmes

Provide data and let's have a discussion then, but I think guys are really looking at the number like "wow 7M is a lot of money for someone his age" without considering the actual slice of the pie that represents. Remember, our last captain played hardball and got 7M when the cap was what, 39M? It will literally be double that soon. Iggy was one of the best to do it at the time, and I would argue that Gio is currently playing near that level.

To effectively tell him he's 50-60% of that.. *Shrug*

That's enough internet for me today


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IMO Gio is not and never will be the same elite athlete Iggy was and is.

Gio what? almost got nominated for a Norris trophy? whereas Iggy did get nominated for the Hart and got robbed by the eastern media....and Iggy remained in the top for a decade.

Gio has what? played 2 pretty good seasons, the last one being great until he got injured.

Sometimes Flames fans over value their players. If you would ask around the league for a list of present elite defensemen, do you really think Gio would even be top 5?

I don't.

I love Gio as much as the next Flames fan and he is a great captain but IMO, you are over valuing him a lot if you say he is a top elite player in the NHL.

[FFFLife]

Originally Posted by redforever

Sometimes Flames fans over value their players. If you would ask around the league for a list of present elite defensemen, do you really think Gio would even be top 5?

I think most GM's would place Gio in their top five for sure!

If you look at the Norris voting from the past season you can see that WITH his Injury he got the 6th most amount of votes for BEST defenceman in the league.

1. Erik Karlsson, OTT 964 (44-42-33-19-8)
2. Drew Doughty, LAK 889 (53-30-20-13-10)
3. P.K. Subban, MTL 801 (24-36-38-37-8)
4. Shea Weber, NSH 614 (26-19-28-20-21)
5. Roman Josi, NSH 222 (3-9-11-17-23)
6. Mark Giordano, CGY 177 (1-6-11-15-25)
7. Duncan Keith, CHI 134 (1-7-4-12-19)
8. Kris Letang, PIT 80 (1-2-6-6-8)
9. Ryan Suter, MIN 43 (2-0-0-4-11)
10. John Carlson, WSH 31 (0-1-1-6-1)

You think he wouldnt be top 5 if he played a full season, its not like hes injury prone, his last injury was a freak accident with seconds left in a game that should not have happened.

Curious, who are the 5 defencemen you would you rather have on your team right now, for the 15/16 season, over Gio?

[DJones]

Originally Posted by FFFLife

I think most GM's would place Gio in their top five for sure!

If you look at the Norris voting from the past season you can see that WITH his Injury he got the 6th most amount of votes for BEST defenceman in the league.

1. Erik Karlsson, OTT 964 (44-42-33-19-8)
2. Drew Doughty, LAK 889 (53-30-20-13-10)
3. P.K. Subban, MTL 801 (24-36-38-37-8)
4. Shea Weber, NSH 614 (26-19-28-20-21)
5. Roman Josi, NSH 222 (3-9-11-17-23)
6. Mark Giordano, CGY 177 (1-6-11-15-25)
7. Duncan Keith, CHI 134 (1-7-4-12-19)
8. Kris Letang, PIT 80 (1-2-6-6-8)
9. Ryan Suter, MIN 43 (2-0-0-4-11)
10. John Carlson, WSH 31 (0-1-1-6-1)

You think he wouldnt be top 5 if he played a full season, its not like hes injury prone, his last injury was a freak accident with seconds left in a game that should not have happened.

Curious, who are the 5 defencemen you would you rather have on your team right now, for next season over Gio?

He said the opinion of fans around the league not personally. For one year Gio would definitively be in my top 3 but that's because I know exactly how he plays since I watch him so much. Might change in a vaccum.

Karlsson
Subban
Keith
Doughty
Weber

Those seem to be the consensus top 5 from what I have seen. Gio, Hedman, Sutter, Josi in a tier below.

[Enoch Root]

Definitely rather have 2015 Giordano than 2015 Subban.

Karlsson is a different kind of player, so hard to compare.

Keith, Doughty, Weber... yes

[CliffFletcher]

The issue isn't about how good Gio was in 2014-15 or how good he will be in 2015-16. The issue is how good he'll be in 2021-22.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The issue isn't about how good Gio was in 2014-15 or how good he will be in 2015-16. The issue is how good he'll be in 2021-22.

That is definitely one of the issues.

[FFFLife]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The issue isn't about how good Gio was in 2014-15 or how good he will be in 2015-16. The issue is how good he'll be in 2021-22.

Right, I think RIGHT NOW he's top 5 in the league but based on his age we are all hoping he either takes a shortish term (3-5 year) mid-high money contract, I think hes still got a few elite years left in him! If its 6-8 year something that is definitely more cap friendly would be nice, and I think he knows he wont be as effective after year 3 or 4 of the contract.

Lets say 6.25 over 7 years, that helps us now with the cap, and even towards the end of the contract, with the cap (hopefully) rising year to year, that 6.25 will be more like 4-5 Million in todays cap hit %

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The issue isn't about how good Gio was in 2014-15 or how good he will be in 2015-16. The issue is how good he'll be in 2021-22.

Exactly. You could make a case that Gio is better than guys like Josi, OEL, Hedman, Ekblad, Jones, etc. right now but likely no GM in the league would trade any of these guys for Gio. So yes pay him accordingly to where he fits in the market now but we also have to forecast where he will fit in the market later in his contract. A fair contract now and a bad contract later could do more bad than good for us. Our odds of contending are much greater 3-5+ years from now than in the next 1 or 2 years so I'd rather we plan accordingly based on that.

[Psytic]

I have no problems moving him if he wants to much term. I would day flip him and a prospect for a young D in the age range of Hamilton and Brodie but as another poster pointed out most teams hang onto their young studs outside of Hamilton. I would definitely be preemptively shopping him just in case though.

[Jason14h]

The issue isn't about how good Gio was in 2014-15 or how good he will be in 2015-16. The issue is how good he'll be in 2021-22.

The point of hockey is to win the cup. Not worry about cap space in 7 years.

Let's say Gio is effective for 4 more years. Do you make your team that much more competitive for 4 years and then see where you are? A lot can change in 4-5 years.

Players of his calibre just do not hit FA and there is a reason why.

[jemjey]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The point of hockey is to win the cup. Not worry about cap space in 7 years.

Let's say Gio is effective for 4 more years. Do you make your team that much more competitive for 4 years and then see where you are? A lot can change in 4-5 years.

Players of his calibre just do not hit FA and there is a reason why.

Managing a professional hockey team has a lot to do with managing cap in the present and future. If you're going to sign a player to a long-term deal you better worry about how that will affect your team in the latter stages of the contract.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The point of hockey is to win the cup. Not worry about cap space in 7 years.

Let's say Gio is effective for 4 more years. Do you make your team that much more competitive for 4 years and then see where you are? A lot can change in 4-5 years.

Players of his calibre just do not hit FA and there is a reason why.

The game is changing and yes you have to worry about cap space 7 years down the road, the young kids are getting the money now and paying 33 year old players huge contracts till their 40 kills a team, Ask any Boston fan would they rather Chara or Hamilton. If Pronger wasn't told to stay home and collect 7+ million on disability they would have had a hard time keeping their young players as well.

Again, I love Gio's game and he'll be rich beyond his wildest dreams but if he wants to be paid huge $$ when he's 38-40 I would trade him fast.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by jemjey

Managing a professional hockey team has a lot to do with managing cap in the present and future. If you're going to sign a player to a long-term deal you better worry about how that will affect your team in the latter stages of the contract.

Only to a degree.

Any GM's number 1 priority is to win. Whether that be now or in a few years, all these guys have one single goal in front of them.

Treliving cant overly worry about what the landscape looks like 7 years down the road. Hell, its unlikely he will even have the job at that time, the way coaches and GM's are discarded these days.

So does Giordano being part of your team the next say 6 years make you closer to the ultimate goal? Obviously the majority would say yes. So now does that translate into offering an 8 year deal (all hypothetical) make it worth it for the first 6 and knowing the last couple are going to be a bad value? I would say absolutely it does.

"Just win baby" should be his mantra now and moving forward.

All that being said I still think he signs a 5 year 40 million dollar deal and all this "discussion" means bupkus.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by T@T

The game is changing and yes you have to worry about cap space 7 years down the road, the young kids are getting the money now and paying 33 year old players huge contracts till their 40 kills a team, Ask any Boston fan would they rather Chara or Hamilton. If Pronger wasn't told to stay home and collect 7+ million on disability they would have had a hard time keeping their young players as well.

Again, I love Gio's game and he'll be rich beyond his wildest dreams but if he wants to be paid huge $$ when he's 38-40 I would trade him fast.

Ask any Boston fan if they would rather have a Stanley Cup to celebrate or not recently.

And what in the hell does Pronger have to do with....anything?

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Ask any Boston fan if they would rather have a Stanley Cup to celebrate or not recently.

And what in the hell does Pronger have to do with....anything?

His contract started after they won the Cup...

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by transplant99

All that being said I still think he signs a 5 year 40 million dollar deal and all this "discussion" means bupkus.

$8M a season? Not a chance. I'd trade him and never look back at that cost. 5 years at a max of $6.5 cap hit is where I'd draw the line, and that number continues to drop the more I look at his age and injury history. Add in the flagging Canadian buck and the potential for the cap to drop becomes a specter to be concerned of. I wouldn't sign Giordano to a contract that might prevent you from keeping your developing youth.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Ask any Boston fan if they would rather have a Stanley Cup to celebrate or not recently.

What's your point?, Chara signed a 7 year extension the year after the cup win, they missed the playoffs last year and had no cap space for arguably their best Dman at age 23. Chara at 38 is now a giant pylon. and will be for 3 more years.

Originally Posted by transplant99

And what in the hell does Pronger have to do with....anything?

What's so hard to understand?, was thinking of an Dman signing a big contract at 33, fortunately for Philly they didn't have to loose a young player because of him, or maybe you think without the "so-called long term concussion" he would be a Norris contender at age 40?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

His contract started after they won the Cup...

fair enough...though it was right after they won. They were not going to let him go right after a SC victory and there was another run to the finals in there.

[CroFlames]

It's a little funny how we go in circles and circles in this thread, craving an update from the Flames.

[jemjey]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Only to a degree.

Any GM's number 1 priority is to win. Whether that be now or in a few years, all these guys have one single goal in front of them.

Treliving cant overly worry about what the landscape looks like 7 years down the road. Hell, its unlikely he will even have the job at that time, the way coaches and GM's are discarded these days.

So does Giordano being part of your team the next say 6 years make you closer to the ultimate goal? Obviously the majority would say yes. So now does that translate into offering an 8 year deal (all hypothetical) make it worth it for the first 6 and knowing the last couple are going to be a bad value? I would say absolutely it does.

"Just win baby" should be his mantra now and moving forward.

All that being said I still think he signs a 5 year 40 million dollar deal and all this "discussion" means bupkus.

Not worrying/caring about long-term implications of a contract is a good way to ensure you won't have another GM job. As it is, Tre has proven that he isn't short-sighted, which I think is great. Of course I want to get Gio signed, and of course we're a better team with him than without, but giving him a long-term deal without caring about its impact in the final years of the deal isn't good management. If you win the cup, its worth it, but if you don't it can backfire very quickly. Would you still sign him to an 8-yr deal if you lose in the finals and that deal goes on to hamper your ability to sign Monahan/Gaudreau/Bennett?

Finally, I don't think a GM's number 1 job is to win. If you're hired as GM of a rebuilding team (say, the flames,) your job isn't to go out and try to win a cup in your first year by signing guys to contracts that will handcuff you down the road. Your job is to set the team up for long-term success, something I think Tre is doing a great job of.