[Rumour] Giordano Extension. Kypreos: Starting point is $72 million over 8 years

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

It's easy to be ruthless in the NFL when you can cut a player lose at any moment during the contract.

Think the Flames are fine signing Gio to a be deal for 4-5 years. Monahan, Bennett, Gaudreau will all need new deals in that time frame(obviously) but signing them won't eat up any UFA years yet. Signing Gio to that deal won't cripple us, it will only add 2-3 million on top of the 4 million cap hit he already eats up.

Big money coming off the books at 36-37 is fine for Gio.

You have to be even smarter in the NHL because you can't cut them. The deal won't start until he is 33 and he will already be on the downside. From a business standpoint I don't want to give him more than 2 years. I would go as high as 3 because he is the captain. I think that anything longer than 3 at 8 (and I have no reason to doubt Transplant) is bad business... If that doesn't do it, we can get a very nice return for him. We need to find a defenseman who is worth 8 at 24, not 33 and build around that guy. Maybe it's Brodie. Maybe it the guy we trade Giordano for...

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

You have to be even smarter in the NHL because you can't cut them. The deal won't start until he is 33 and he will already be on the downside. From a business standpoint I don't want to give him more than 2 years. I would go as high as 3 because he is the captain. I think that anything longer than 3 at 8 (and I have reason to doubt Transplant) is bad business... If that doesn't do it, we can get a very nice return for him. We need to find a defenseman who is worth 8 at 24, not 33 and build around that guy. Maybe it's Brodie. Maybe it the guy we trade Giordano for...

Isn't it also bad business to trade a 24 year old core defenseman who is worth $8M AAV for a 33 year old? Might want to adjust those expectations a smidge.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

You have to be even smarter in the NHL because you can't cut them. The deal won't start until he is 33 and he will already be on the downside. From a business standpoint I don't want to give him more than 2 years. I would go as high as 3 because he is the captain. I think that anything longer than 3 at 8 (and I have reason to doubt Transplant) is bad business... If that doesn't do it, we can get a very nice return for him. We need to find a defenseman who is worth 8 at 24, not 33 and build around that guy. Maybe it's Brodie. Maybe it the guy we trade Giordano for...

I don't know why it's bad business. If they can fit him into their cap at the start of the contract and it works into their forecast at the end, that's good business.

Yeah, it would be thrilling to have franchise 8 million dollar 24 year old defesnemen, but we don't have that and the teams that are in the position to draft those players aren't going to be looking for Giordano.

So if he fits into the forecasted cap, make it work.

Keep drafting and developing players. That won't stop.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

You have to be even smarter in the NHL because you can't cut them. The deal won't start until he is 33 and he will already be on the downside. From a business standpoint I don't want to give him more than 2 years. I would go as high as 3 because he is the captain. I think that anything longer than 3 at 8 (and I have no reason to doubt Transplant) is bad business... If that doesn't do it, we can get a very nice return for him. We need to find a defenseman who is worth 8 at 24, not 33 and build around that guy. Maybe it's Brodie. Maybe it the guy we trade Giordano for...

Giordano is just not durable enough to spend that kind of money. It's a combination of age and consistency that should determine the value of a 30+ contract. I guess if bad fortune ends his career like Pronger, Calgary gets cap relief.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Isn't it also bad business to trade a 24 year old core defenseman who is worth $8M AAV for a 33 year old? Might want to adjust those expectations a smidge.

What are you talking about? Sorry if I wasn't clear - I meant we need to find a guy that will be worth 8 at 24 - ie probably draft him and develop him. As in we trade Gio to the Flyers and draft Provorov (or some such scenario). Obviously, you can't trade Gio for Doughty.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

What are you talking about? Sorry if I wasn't clear - I meant we need to find a guy that will be worth 8 at 24 - ie probably draft him and develop him. As in we trade Gio to the Flyers and draft Provorov (or some such scenario). Obviously, you can't trade Gio for Doughty.

Why are teams drafting that high looking for a 32 year old?

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

What are you talking about? Sorry if I wasn't clear - I meant we need to find a guy that will be worth 8 at 24 - ie probably draft him and develop him. As in we trade Gio to the Flyers and draft Provorov (or some such scenario). Obviously, you can't trade Gio for Doughty.

My bad. You finished one sentence talking about a nice return for Giordano, then began the next about the 24 year old defenseman. I thought you meant this 24 year old would be the nice return you spoke of.

Brodie's already 25, so he's not the one.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Why are teams drafting that high looking for a 32 year old?

The Flyers always want to be contenders for one... You are focusing too much on specifics and not enough on the general principle. I haven't even seriously thought what you can get for Giordano. A 1st plus a high-end prospect seem right? Less? I am just saying in general I would not give years and money to any 33 year-old. Never pay for the past...

[Finger Cookin]

What's the age limit for years and money? 26 or 27? Beyond that, lower either dollars or term? That's a pretty narrow parameter to use for building a team.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

The Flyers always want to be contenders for one... You are focusing too much on specifics and not enough on the general principle. I haven't even seriously thought what you can get for Giordano. A 1st plus a high-end prospect seem right? Less? I am just saying in general I would not give years and money to any 33 year-old. Never pay for the past...

God damn specifics!

I know because we've been burned by not getting quality returns for veterans we're shy about keep anyone over 30 now but we kinda need to get over that, it's a balance IMO. Yeah, ship out some UFA's but keep some veterans around as well, and pay them. Especially if it won't harm your cap long term.

The reason the Flames needed to trade away our vets for picks and prospects is because we were so abysmal at bringing in young for so long. If Calgary has turned around their drafting and developing you don't need to be constantly trading away vets for fear of losing them, you already have talent in the system.

The Wings should have been ruthless and traded Yzerman, Lidstrom, Draper etc etc I suppose but instead they weren't abysmal when it came to drafting and had quality coming up to replace the aging guys.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

I am just saying in general I would not give years and money to any 33 year-old. Never pay for the past...

You checked out on this team and stopped watching a couple years ago, so maybe you've missed it...

but it's not the "past", it's this season and the last that he's stepped up and become one of the best players in the league, and has several more years ahead of him at that level.

Letting Gio go at this point would be a huge blow to the rebuild and send a horrible message to all our young players. It would set the franchise back several years to lose a true No. 1 defensman.

[BrownDrake]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Bennett's played 12 nhl games & we already know he's getting that 6 million dollar deal eh?

One season at a time, k?

The middler RFA's seem to be getting the 2 year bridge deals, core RFA's seem to be skipping that step more often so teams can eat up a few years of the UFA time.

Couture - 6.0
Landeskog - 5.6
The Oiler Triplets - 6.0
Duchene - 6.0
Seguin - 5.8
Skinner - 5.7
E. Kane - 5.25
Van Riemsdyk - 4.25
Bjugstad - 4.1
Johansen (bridge deal) - 4.0

Monahan and Gaudreau's trajectory appears to be higher than some of those as far as stats and cap is higher than when those deals were done. Those two likely get signed to longer deals to eat up a few years of UFA time and skip the bridge deals.

I am hoping we have the same problem with Bennett. You should at least be planning for that as you consider spending money on other players so you don't put your team in a bad position.

Watch the Tarasenko, Saad, Nyquist and Kadri deals this summer.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

God damn specifics!

I know because we've been burned by not getting quality returns for veterans we're shy about keep anyone over 30 now but we kinda need to get over that, it's a balance IMO. Yeah, ship out some UFA's but keep some veterans around as well, and pay them. Especially if it won't harm your cap long term.

The reason the Flames needed to trade away our vets for picks and prospects is because we were so abysmal at bringing in young for so long. If Calgary has turned around their drafting and developing you don't need to be constantly trading away vets for fear of losing them, you already have talent in the system.

The Wings should have been ruthless and traded Yzerman, Lidstrom, Draper etc etc I suppose but instead they weren't abysmal when it came to drafting and had quality coming up to replace the aging guys.

This is a great post. Neither flames management or fans have shown the patience to see a drafted player through until they retire.

There is either a contract dispute+trade or a trade because they are old. Mullen, Gilmour, Nieuwendyk, Vernon, MacInnis, Fleury, Roberts, Iginla, etc.

I still think 9m/per is too much for Giordano's leadership when he isn't playing. The flames finally have value in a number of their ELC's, and like you said, that's probably a huge factor in their rapid turnaround. As is coaching.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

What's the age limit for years and money? 26 or 27? Beyond that, lower either dollars or term? That's a pretty narrow parameter to use for building a team.

Think of it like this.

When Iginla was 32, he put up 43 goals and 43 assists for 86 points, good enough for 6th in the entire NHL. He finished 3rd in the NHL in goals, only 2 behind Stamkos. If he had been a free agent then, he could have asked for 7.5 or 8 million.

The justification would have been "oh he's our best player" "he's the captain" "he's in great shape he could play until he's 40".

37 year old Iginla scored 29 goals and 30 assists. He was still productive, but definitely not a 7, 7.5 or 8 million dollar player. If the Flames are lucky, they would get that kind of longevity from a Giordano contract.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Think of it like this.

When Iginla was 32, he put up 43 goals and 43 assists for 86 points, good enough for 6th in the entire NHL. He finished 3rd in the NHL in goals, only 2 behind Stamkos. If he had been a free agent then, he could have asked for 7.5 or 8 million.

The justification would have been "oh he's our best player" "he's the captain" "he's in great shape he could play until he's 40".

37 year old Iginla scored 29 goals and 30 assists. He was still productive, but definitely not a 7, 7.5 or 8 million dollar player. If the Flames are lucky, they would get that kind of longevity from a Giordano contract.

Except the big money years people are the next two, at ages 33-34. At ages 35-37 you'll probably see that come down, and that's what people are guessing in some proposals as well.

The cap hit might be higher but if I'm looking out and guessing some cap hits down the line it won't hinder the Flames in anyway if a 7 million dollar cap hit comes off the books when he's 37. That might just be the right time.

I'm on the fence either way. If the return is good (Bouwmeester and Iginla returns weren't) I'm good with that. If the cap hit isn't too shocking in the later years I'm fine with that too.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Think of it like this.

When Iginla was 32, he put up 43 goals and 43 assists for 86 points, good enough for 6th in the entire NHL. He finished 3rd in the NHL in goals, only 2 behind Stamkos. If he had been a free agent then, he could have asked for 7.5 or 8 million.

The justification would have been "oh he's our best player" "he's the captain" "he's in great shape he could play until he's 40".

37 year old Iginla scored 29 goals and 30 assists. He was still productive, but definitely not a 7, 7.5 or 8 million dollar player. If the Flames are lucky, they would get that kind of longevity from a Giordano contract.

But, but, captain.....leadership.....backchecking.....not playing Brent's system......

I totally agree. How much are Giordano's " intangibles" worth if he can't play into the second half of a season or even suit up for the playoffs?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Think of it like this.

When Iginla was 32, he put up 43 goals and 43 assists for 86 points, good enough for 6th in the entire NHL. He finished 3rd in the NHL in goals, only 2 behind Stamkos. If he had been a free agent then, he could have asked for 7.5 or 8 million.

The justification would have been "oh he's our best player" "he's the captain" "he's in great shape he could play until he's 40".

37 year old Iginla scored 29 goals and 30 assists. He was still productive, but definitely not a 7, 7.5 or 8 million dollar player. If the Flames are lucky, they would get that kind of longevity from a Giordano contract.

I agree with your premise, but if we're ignoring age, a 29g, 30a guy probably gets 7.5 as a UFA...

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by sharkov

and I thought he would settle on a home town discount

Such things do not exist.

[Street Pharmacist]

You can't trade away all your good players for futures especially defensemen as they take longer to develop. Especially elite ones. At some point you need high quality veterans to help the young players become quality core players. If you trade Gio, for example, to get Provorov, you're going to have to admit to your team that it'll be at least 5-8 years before Provorov is where Gio is now. That means you're always rebuilding. At some point you need to be there. For this team that should be soon, and Gio can be a big part of that.


Having said all that, hells no to anything longer than 5 years unless dollars are way down.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Think of it like this.

None of that had anything to do with my question that you quoted. Did you quote it in error??