TSN: Dual Offer Sheets

[bomber317]

http://www.tsn.ca/dual-offer-sheets-...alent-1.315613

That seems genius to me, can't believe I never thought of that before.

Works best between rivalry teams that don't trade with each other anyways, so you're not burning any bridges since they are already burnt.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Although an interesting theory, I think it would be pretty difficult in practice. Those RFA's would actually both have to sign the offers for this to work. Because of this, I think you are still overpaying for each individual piece. It might shake out a bigger trade and cap dumps, but still pretty risky to me.

[neo45]

The obvious one here is to offer Kruger like 3.5 and Saad 5.4 because either guy is worth it. The problem is Chicago is a hell of an organization to piss off

[bzoo02]

People seem to forget that the players themselves have to agree to sign the offer sheet to start with. The only way Edmonton would get players like this would be to massively overpay making this whole scenario moot.#

[Street Pharmacist]

There's a couple problems with this method and why I don't think you'll ever see it work.

First, the players would have to have incentive to sign the contracts. If you're offering dollars in those two tiers, it's either at market value or close to it. Would Martin Jones as the example in the article sign for $2M? Not likely when the same offer it higher would come from LA. Would Dougie Hamilton sign for $5.5? No, when he could get that from Boston anyways.

Second, both Boston and LA are expecting and calculating signing these guys for market value anyways, so how would this change their position with regards to their roster plans? LA knows it needs dollars to sign Toffoli anyways, so how does an offer from another team significantly force anything? Their back is up against a wall to shed salary, an offer sheet at fair value doesn't change that.

In order to procure the good RFA talent, you'd have to over spend. On Toffoli, that's gonna take more than $4M anyways. Same for Hamilton or any of the other top RFA's.

[Weitz]

Quick semi related question: Can any RFA sign an offer sheet? Or only after a certain amount of years?

I know not all RFA's have arbitration rights so I am curious.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Quick semi related question: Can any RFA sign an offer sheet? Or only after a certain amount of years?

I know not all RFA's have arbitration rights so I am curious.

I think just not ELC's

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Quick semi related question: Can any RFA sign an offer sheet? Or only after a certain amount of years?

I know not all RFA's have arbitration rights so I am curious.

Players need to have 3 years pro experience to sign an offer sheet.

[polak]

Lets lock up Johnny and Monahan until 2046.

[bomber317]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

There's a couple problems with this method and why I don't think you'll ever see it work.

First, the players would have to have incentive to sign the contracts. If you're offering dollars in those two tiers, it's either at market value or close to it. Would Martin Jones as the example in the article sign for $2M? Not likely when the same offer it higher would come from LA. Would Dougie Hamilton sign for $5.5? No, when he could get that from Boston anyways.

Second, both Boston and LA are expecting and calculating signing these guys for market value anyways, so how would this change their position with regards to their roster plans? LA knows it needs dollars to sign Toffoli anyways, so how does an offer from another team significantly force anything? Their back is up against a wall to shed salary, an offer sheet at fair value doesn't change that.

In order to procure the good RFA talent, you'd have to over spend. On Toffoli, that's gonna take more than $4M anyways. Same for Hamilton or any of the other top RFA's.

For the LA example

offer the max for the tier to Jones - $3.652 Mil
offer the max for the tier to Toffoli - $5.478 Mil

Would both players accept them? Possibly, more likely than the $2 mil and the $4 mil you have for both players there.

And if both do accept, LA will most likely match Toffoli, let go Jones assuming no other roster moves. The question there is do you want Jones for $3.6 mil and a 2nd rounder?

For the Boston example, you are essentially targeting Spooner since Boston is going to match up to $7 mil for Hamilton (apparently - http://www.csnne.com/boston-bruins/o...hreat-hamilton)

[polak]

Or if they let both go then you're on the hook for quite a bit of picks?

I'm also assuming if the compensation for each player includes, say a 2nd, and you only have one 2nd, you won't be able to do it...

[bomber317]

Originally Posted by polak

Or if they let both go then you're on the hook for quite a bit of picks?

I'm also assuming if the compensation for each player includes, say a 2nd, and you only have one 2nd, you won't be able to do it...

If they let go both, you will owe them picks in Rounds 1, 2, and 3

Would you trade 2016 - Round 1, 2, 3 and take on $9.13 mil cap hit for Toffoli and Jones?

[getbak]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Players need to have 3 years pro experience to sign an offer sheet.

Further to this, a player earns a year of experience by either playing 10 or more NHL games if he's under 20, or 10 or more pro games if he's over 20.

For example, Lance Bouma got injured at the start of his third pro season and only played 3 AHL games during the season, so he didn't have RFA rights when his ELC expired.


Also, the number of years of experience required decreases depending on the player's age when he signed his first contract. Generally speaking, the player will be RFA eligible when his ELC expires. However, with the late-season college signings, the player typical burns the first year of his contract without playing enough games to have it count as a year of experience.

If I understand the rules correctly, Arnold, Agostino, and Van Brabant are all in need of new contracts for next season, but none of them are eligible to accept an offer sheet from another team, so the Flames basically own them if they want to play in North America next season. This is also a reason why no one should be surprised if they all sign one-year contracts for next season.

[SuperMatt18]

In the case detailed it would cost you your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

Which isn't that bad for Toffoli and Jones.

As long as you aren't a lottery team, and if your team has other assets to move for additional 2nd's and 3rd's.

For a team like Winnipeg that has a great prospect base, and could use some high end forwards and a good goalie, moving those picks next year could make some sense and puts pressure on a conference rival.

[Badgers Nose]

I wouldn't worry about burning bridges. This is a winner takes all contest. What's the average life expectancy of a GM?

IMO ruthlessness within the agreed to rules of the CBA is a good trait.

You only get in trouble when you offer dumb money to not very good players - a la Edmonton.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by polak

Or if they let both go then you're on the hook for quite a bit of picks?

I'm also assuming if the compensation for each player includes, say a 2nd, and you only have one 2nd, you won't be able to do it...

Yeah, if you have an active offer sheet out that has a Second Round pick as compensation, you can't give out another offer sheet that includes a Second Round pick.

That really makes this Dual Offer Sheet idea highly unlikely because you can only do it in those two specific price brackets. You need to have a team that has two pending RFAs, each one in those brackets who are each willing to simultaneously sign an offer sheet with your team.

[polak]

Originally Posted by getbak

Yeah, if you have an active offer sheet out that has a Second Round pick as compensation, you can't give out another offer sheet that includes a Second Round pick.

That really makes this Dual Offer Sheet idea highly unlikely because you can only do it in those two specific price brackets. You need to have a team that has two pending RFAs, each one in those brackets who are each willing to simultaneously sign an offer sheet with your team.

Yeah exactly.

Lots variables that need to line up in order for it to work.

1) 2 players you like
2) Both in a compensation range where you have picks available
3) Have the cap space for both
4) Both want to sign

[Enoch Root]

And the other problem is that the original team is likely to try and retain the better of the two (assuming either is worth keeping), leaving the offer-sheet originators with the one that the original team doesn't want.

It seems like a somewhat clever idea at first blush, but it appears that the guys trumpeting it have not thought it through very thoroughly.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And the other problem is that the original team is likely to try and retain the better of the two (assuming either is worth keeping), leaving the offer-sheet originators with the one that the original team doesn't want.

It seems like a somewhat clever idea at first blush, but it appears that the guys trumpeting it have not thought it through very thoroughly.

I think the double offersheet is best utilized by one team piggy backing off the offersheet of another team.

Edmonton offersheets Hamilton? Calgary should be in there with spooner immediately after.

[mikephoen]

I don't hate this idea. I doubt it works very often, and obviously you'll never get the 'top' guy in the dual offer sheet scenario. But if you actually want the other guy and are willing to pay a second for him...

Offer sheeting your closest rivals has other advantages as well. For example you can give Toffoli a contract offer that doesn't spend any of his UFA years and right at the top of the 1st and 3rd compensation level and cause LA future problems with resigning him. And if you want Jones for a 2nd, you will either get him, or give LA another problem to deal with. Doubt they want a back up making over 3M with their cap situation.