Truth and Reconciliation Commission

[FlamesAddiction]

Since this topic is active again, it might be worth mentioning that this Sunday is National Aboriginal Day across the country. It's a good time to reflect on the past, think about the future and learn about native cultures.

Depending where you live, there could be some events to take in. Some might be intended exclusively for aboriginals, but there are probably some open to the general public.

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/110.../1100100013249

[GGG]

Originally Posted by icecube

Pure horse #### narrative and anyone who believes that tripe is a moron. They did not have the best interest of indigenous peoples in mind for even one nano second. Every single racist government policy, from the residential school system to the indian act was meant to keep them in the gutter and give white settlers an advantage.

Numerous examples of malice in the indian act and residential schools. What you are saying is myth and an attempt to let Canada off the hook.

I think the examples of malice in the act and residential schools demonstrate what I am trying to say. They wanted to take the children at the time and indoctrinate them in white culture and let the rest die out. What I'm saying is that the people who did this believed that given the information at the time what they were doing was right.

I think as a country we have to answer for what happened in residential schools. And as a country we have to answer for the in humane treatment of these peoples as savages.

But when it comes to evaluating the actions of individuals I think you need to be a little more delicate. And you need to consider the morality of the day. If someone was anti-gay in the 50s would you hold them to the same standard of today and say their other accomplishments aren't worth celebrating.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think the examples of malice in the act and residential schools demonstrate what I am trying to say. They wanted to take the children at the time and indoctrinate them in white culture and let the rest die out. What I'm saying is that the people who did this believed that given the information at the time what they were doing was right.

I think as a country we have to answer for what happened in residential schools. And as a country we have to answer for the in humane treatment of these peoples as savages.

But when it comes to evaluating the actions of individuals I think you need to be a little more delicate. And you need to consider the morality of the day. If someone was anti-gay in the 50s would you hold them to the same standard of today and say their other accomplishments aren't worth celebrating.

Read this letter of Russ Moses experience at the Mohawk Institute in Ontario and then try and explain to me how they had the best interests of these children in mind.

And the whole school was like this...every child who attended the Mohawk Institute was traumatized.

If it was the odd child here or there, one perhaps could try and justify these schools on the basis that unfortunately there are always just some very bad people in society.

Way too often that was simply not the case. And no, there is no way one should be delicate when judging some of those in authority.

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.c.../RussMoses.pdf

[icecube]

"Natives did not know how to farm (which was how about 80 per cent of Canadians made a living), and efforts to teach them had failed."
The quote above belongs to Cliff Fletcher from page 2 of this thread..

Myths and misconceptions like this just prove the point that colonialism is ongoing (we aren't being taught the correct history in school. Is that not a form of institutional racism?)

There were many First Nations that were extremely successful in agriculture, and it was this success that had the government step in and develop policies to make it near impossible for FN's to succeed. Our government KNOWINGLY and PURPOSELY sabotaged their farming practices because of complaints from white settlers. I am not making this #### up!

If you look at the facts it is not hard to connect the dots and realize that the policy makers at the time were purposely undermining First Nations at practically every possible turn. They knew damn well what they were doing.

There are some damn good quotes I wanted to paste from this link but the formatting goes all wonky on me, which is frustrating beyond belief because the guys who should be reading this in all likelihood won't even bother.


http://apihtawikosisan.com/wp-conten...griculture.pdf

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by icecube

"Natives did not know how to farm (which was how about 80 per cent of Canadians made a living), and efforts to teach them had failed."
The quote above belongs to Cliff Fletcher from page 2 of this thread..

Myths and misconceptions like this just prove the point that colonialism is ongoing (we aren't being taught the correct history in school. Is that not a form of institutional racism?)

There were many First Nations that were extremely successful in agriculture, and it was this success that had the government step in and develop policies to make it near impossible for FN's to succeed. Our government KNOWINGLY and PURPOSELY sabotaged their farming practices because of complaints from white settlers. I am not making this #### up!

If you look at the facts it is not hard to connect the dots and realize that the policy makers at the time were purposely undermining First Nations at practically every possible turn. They knew damn well what they were doing.

There are some damn good quotes I wanted to paste from this link but the formatting goes all wonky on me, which is frustrating beyond belief because the guys who should be reading this in all likelihood won't even bother.


http://apihtawikosisan.com/wp-conten...griculture.pdf

It depends on the First Nations group. Certainly some were farmers and had permanent settlements (Winnipeg was one). Many were nomadic hunters and gatherers as well. I won't venture a guess as to the ratios, but it is pretty obvious that a larger area of Canada simply isn't suitable to farming even with modern technology. There is also evidence that west coast natives had established a commercial fishery long before colonialism.

Even in Europe, there were nomads up until just before the colonization of North America. Most nomadic cultures in Europe became assimilated and extinct by the late 1100s and some even existed until the 1300s. It's too bad there isn't a written history of pre-colonial First Nations. It would be interesting to know if their nomads were becoming assimilated like the ones in Europe did.

[icecube]

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here in particular, but it is annoying that to this day, many still view Indigenous people's as some sort of intellectually/creatively, culturally inferior "race". They never were inferior in any way shape or form.

I have seen more than a few times on this very message board, ignorant and racist comments like, "derp they should be happy we brought them out of the stone age derrrrr"

Needless to say, these were people with radically different world-views and completely different priorities and values from the people living on the other side of the globe. It is also much harder to make technological advances the more isolated and sparsely populated you are. (Even those two factors are overly simplistic explanations. The racist p.o.v. just boggles the frickin mind!)

It's also laughable to suggest that our western civilization has the market cornered on so called "progress". Look no further at the state of the planet to realize how insane our materialistic consumer worldview is.

Earlier, someone said something to the effect that we all lost out when our government tried to extinguish their culture and that is true in countless ways.

The sustainable care-taking of our planet is a worldview we so desperately need. The 7 generations principle (based on the stewardship of mother earth) that First Nations peoples have adhered to, is not just some airy fairy spiritual mumbo jumbo. It was a necessity of life.

Traditional ecological knowledge had evolved over thousands of years of lived experience. That knowledge is invaluable and should be honoured and studied much much further.They have a ton of knowledge about natural phenomena, ecosystems, plants, animals, fisheries and on and on, that our environmental scientists and anthropologists are learning as we speak.

Not to mention these guys were (some still are) adapted to their local environment on a level that your average so called "woodsman" roughing it up north can't even conceive of. Go try hanging with a Dene or Inuit living a traditional lifestyle. Tell me those guys are lazy or dumb. You wouldn't make it half a day, no exaggeration.

Indigenous people's have been saying that we are connected to the web of nature since time immemorial, far before Darwin came along. Lucky guess, perhaps?

It's a testament to the resiliency of the people that they refused to be assimilated despite 100 plus years of government effort (some, including myself would argue this process is still ongoing. Finally in the past couple of generations we are now seeing more and more First Nations (and Metis) who are medical doctors, lawyers, academics with PHD's, scientists, engineers, teachers, social workers, tradespeople, etc.

In summary, not inferior!

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

They did do it out of the kindness of their hearts based on terrible assumptions

They were saving kids from savages and turning the next generation of Indians into functioning members of society. They were saving kids. With the benefit of history it looks horrific but based on the values at the time it was better than killing the savages.

At the time, it looked better than just leaving them on reserves. Back when the residential schools system was set up, reserves were even more dire places than they are now. The social welfare state we have now didn't exist.

Very, very little of the bad things that happen in this world are the result of malice. But people don't want to hear that. They want a narrative with villains and heroes.

[icecube]

I see someone didnt bother reading those links. Keep clinging to and pushing that blatantly false narrative though. I know theres plenty of suckers who dont want to know or hear the cruel truth.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by icecube

It's also laughable to suggest that our western civilization has the market cornered on so called "progress". Look no further at the state of the planet to realize how insane our materialistic consumer worldview is.

I don't see natives turning their back on things like modern health care, automobiles, television, and the internet. It's not racist to say that the way they lived pre-contact would be considered dire poverty today.

Originally Posted by icecube

The sustainable care-taking of our planet is a worldview we so desperately need. The 7 generations principle (based on the stewardship of mother earth) that First Nations peoples have adhered to, is not just some airy fairy spiritual mumbo jumbo. It was a necessity of life.

Traditional ecological knowledge had evolved over thousands of years of lived experience. That knowledge is invaluable and should be honoured and studied much much further.They have a ton of knowledge about natural phenomena, ecosystems, plants, animals, fisheries and on and on, that our environmental scientists and anthropologists are learning as we speak.

Sorry, there's no evidence that this traditional stewardship was some kind of happy-clappy harmony with nature. Dozens of species were hunted to extinction long before Europeans set foot in the Western Hemisphere.

When I worked in the NWT, I covered the poaching trial of some local hunters. Four guys got on snowmobiles, went out onto Great Slave Lake, shot nine caribou in the matter of minutes, cut out the very choicest bits of each animal and loaded it onto sleds, and left the rest (90 per cent of each animal) to rot. The traditional lifestyle is over. Now it's high powered rifles, snowmobiles, and trucks.

Originally Posted by icecube

It's a testament to the resiliency of the people that they refused to be assimilated despite 100 plus years of government effort (some, including myself would argue this process is still ongoing. Finally in the past couple of generations we are now seeing more and more First Nations (and Metis) who are medical doctors, lawyers, academics with PHD's, scientists, engineers, teachers, social workers, tradespeople, etc.

You don't see a tension between living a traditional native lifestyle and being a doctor, engineers, social worker, etc.? You have to move off reserve to learn all that stuff.

[icecube]

Sigh. Big time disconnect between what I said and how you interpreted it.

Im trying to challenge this false, Eurocentric assumption, that western consumer culture is the be all end all. It's massive and there's no escaping it anymore. No debate there.

Yeah, obviously there is no going back now to the way it was. 100 percent traditional. Never suggested that, nor do I think it's possible..

Also, never suggested things were in perfect harmony either, but the fact of the matter is our western worldview has us royally screwed in our own lifetime. We could learn a thing or two from the indigenous worldview. Period.

I don't think the future is on reserves whatsoever. Where the hell did I even come close to saying that. That is probably the last place most people are going to find success or happiness. But that doesn't mean assimilation is the answer.

I can empathize with people who want to stay on reserve or are unable to cut the cycle of dependency. I also strongly believe that the future is in education.

[peter12]

The sustainable care-taking of our planet is a worldview we so desperately need. The 7 generations principle (based on the stewardship of mother earth) that First Nations peoples have adhered to, is not just some airy fairy spiritual mumbo jumbo. It was a necessity of life.

Show me proof. Which First Nations adhered to this principle? Where? This is just another myth like Squanto or Adario that people like to tell themselves now.

Traditional ecological knowledge had evolved over thousands of years of lived experience. That knowledge is invaluable and should be honoured and studied much much further.They have a ton of knowledge about natural phenomena, ecosystems, plants, animals, fisheries and on and on, that our environmental scientists and anthropologists are learning as we speak.

As someone who deals directly with TEK, I can say from experience this is entirely false. Oral traditions are adaptive, they do not have the same critical knowledge base as a written tradition.

Not to mention these guys were (some still are) adapted to their local environment on a level that your average so called "woodsman" roughing it up north can't even conceive of. Go try hanging with a Dene or Inuit living a traditional lifestyle. Tell me those guys are lazy or dumb. You wouldn't make it half a day, no exaggeration.

Just lived in the bush with a Dene gentleman for 21 days. They do have a high degree of land use knowledge that is completely dependent on cultural superstitions and taboo that while, effective for survival, do not approach anything scientific. Also, the guy had a high-powered rifle, a truck, and ate pepperoni from the gas station.

Indigenous people's have been saying that we are connected to the web of nature since time immemorial, far before Darwin came along. Lucky guess, perhaps?

How would you have proof of this without a written tradition? Romantic nonsense.

It's a testament to the resiliency of the people that they refused to be assimilated despite 100 plus years of government effort (some, including myself would argue this process is still ongoing. Finally in the past couple of generations we are now seeing more and more First Nations (and Metis) who are medical doctors, lawyers, academics with PHD's, scientists, engineers, teachers, social workers, tradespeople, etc.

As it happens, I do see the irreplaceable dignity of each one of these humans, while still being able to firmly say this is untrue. Most natives, if you spend the time with them that I do, will openly admit to wanting a type of assimilation.

[peter12]

Im trying to challenge this false, Eurocentric assumption, that western consumer culture is the be all end all. It's massive and there's no escaping it anymore. No debate there.

Classic postmodern BS evasion. I happen to not really buy into the current creeping, and sometimes creepy libertarian consumer culture that threatens to destroy our own precious social and cultural institutions. Inherited from Christianity, of course.

Also, never suggested things were in perfect harmony either, but the fact of the matter is our western worldview has us royally screwed in our own lifetime. We could learn a thing or two from the indigenous worldview. Period.

You say this while typing on a computer. How can a culture that has created computers learn anything from neolithic cultures? More-so, how can you be so ignorant to assume that nothing important happened in-between these two periods.

I can empathize with people who want to stay on reserve or are unable to cut the cycle of dependency. I also strongly believe that the future is in education.

So, assimilation?

[Vulcan]

You say this while typing on a computer. How can a culture that has created computers learn anything from neolithic cultures? More-so, how can you be so ignorant to assume that nothing important happened in-between these two periods.

Just wow.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by icecube

I see someone didnt bother reading those links. Keep clinging to and pushing that blatantly false narrative though. I know theres plenty of suckers who dont want to know or hear the cruel truth.

In your opinion what was the intent of the residential school program.

[White Out 403]

Does anyone really doubt that the point of the program was assimilation? Problem was you had a bunch of racist people doing it who acted cruel in a lot of cases.

I see nothing wrong with assimilation and integration.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Does anyone really doubt that the point of the program was assimilation? Problem was you had a bunch of racist people doing it who acted cruel in a lot of cases.

I see nothing wrong with assimilation and integration.

What if those people don't want to be assimilated?

And that's ultimately the issue. Assimilation of First Nations in Canada is effectively a utopian vision that has little basis in reality. The government spent well over a century attempting to assimilate them and destroy their culture and it never happened. Any proposed solution has to deal with that reality, as well as the reality of their constitutionally protected rights.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by icecube

... But that doesn't mean assimilation is the answer...

I also strongly believe that the future is in education.

So... back to residential schools then?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by opendoor

What if those people don't want to be assimilated?

And that's ultimately the issue. Assimilation of First Nations in Canada is effectively a utopian vision that has little basis in reality. The government spent well over a century attempting to assimilate them and destroy their culture and it never happened. Any proposed solution has to deal with that reality, as well as the reality of their constitutionally protected rights.

More than half of aboriginals in Canada now live in cities, so I would say that many are willingly undergoing integration and there are probably many others that would welcome the opportunity but the reserve system impedes them.

Integration is probably the only way they can ensure their cultural survival well into the future. Isolation is literally killing them by making them destitute and depressed. Not to mention creating genetic bottle necks in some communities.

The truth is, cultures constantly change and adapt to the changing world. People who don't adapt will see their culture become extinct.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

More than half of aboriginals in Canada now live in cities, so I would say that many are willingly undergoing integration and there are probably many others that would welcome the opportunity but the reserve system impedes them.

Integration is probably the only way they can ensure their cultural survival well into the future. Isolation is literally killing them by making them destitute and depressed. Not to mention creating genetic bottle necks in some communities.

The truth is, cultures constantly change and adapt to the changing world. People who don't adapt will see their culture become extinct.

Assimilation and integration are two wholly different things though.

And like I said above, we're talking about a group whose rights are constitutionally enshrined due to their existence as a self sustaining society on Canadian soil that predates our country. Any kind of "sink or swim" type solution or any plan that has a goal of assimilation is simply an impossibility in the face of Aboriginal rights under the law.

[PsYcNeT]

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/apolo...534/story.html

This could go either here or in the Provincial Politics thread, but it's more relevant to this topic.

The Alberta government apologized Monday for failing to stand up against the residential school system and formally joined the call for a national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women.

“This past is too painful to endure on your own. In the journey of reconciliation, you no longer have to walk alone,” the Premier said.

“We must openly face the root causes that place aboriginal women and girls at the highest risk,” she said. “Harsh realities like poverty, racism, inadequate housing and lack of educational opportunities, among them.”

Definitely more preferable to the PCs sticking their fingers in their ears and loudly screaming that racism doesn't exist/natives should totally be over it omg you guys.