A Song of Ice and Fire **Spoilers** Now more TV talk!

[Finger Cookin]

I don't recall Martin explicitly stating that Jon's parentage will actually be revealed. Not that I doubt you, I just forget how many things have and haven't been discussed about the last two books.

By the way, are we talking about potential book developments that may come about due to how the show went down this season? Or are those considered book spoilers that should be tagged and/or simply not discussed in this thread?

[GreenLantern]

I can't remember where I read it but I swear I saw Martin trolling about it.. ahh ok I found it I am wrong it was a Maybe for WOW and a definitely for DoS (obviously).

Apparently the answer could come sooner than some might expect. During a recent interview with the New York Post, Martin was asked when he plans to say who actually birthed Jon Snow.


"I've not finished 'The Winds of Winter' yet, so maybe in that book," he says, "but if not then definitely in the next book, ['A Dream of Spring']."

I think through mediation we decided that this thread was open game on anything that has occurred anywhere, and the GoT thread was specifically show only.

I'm curious to know what plot lines you are talking about.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

I'm curious to know what plot lines you are talking about.

Tagged, just to be safe:

Spoiler!

Tyrion and Dany being one, despite changes made in the show. I'm dying to see how things play out when they eventually meet.

The battle at Winterfell. Though maybe the show is more ambiguous about Stannis then I first thought.

[Bobblehead]

I don't think the show watchers want to be burdened with all the details that book readers are familiar with. For example, book readers have an idea what is happening with Arya, show watchers don't.

I'm actually a little surprised the post summarizing where the plots are in the show vs the book wasn't given a tougher time.

But regardless, I doubt show watchers want to read debates about the merits of the changes that have occurred, if characters like Lady Stoneheart will make an appearance later, or if there will be any other "re-sequencing" of events.

Some show watchers didn't even want non-spoiler back story explained from the books. I can't see them changing their stance now. If show watchers want things explained, they should come to this thread as opposed to muddying up the other thread.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I don't think the show watchers want to be burdened with all the details that book readers are familiar with. For example, book readers have an idea what is happening with Arya, show watchers don't.

I'm actually a little surprised the post summarizing where the plots are in the show vs the book wasn't given a tougher time.

But regardless, I doubt show watchers want to read debates about the merits of the changes that have occurred, if characters like Lady Stoneheart will make an appearance later, or if there will be any other "re-sequencing" of events.

Some show watchers didn't even want non-spoiler back story explained from the books. I can't see them changing their stance now. If show watchers want things explained, they should come to this thread as opposed to muddying up the other thread.

You're right. As I was just reminded.

Also I'm fighting a losing battle about the Sansa as Jeyne Poole storyline. So maybe I'll just give up.

[Bobblehead]

I would have asked in the other thread......

So it is OK that Sansa's best friend Jeyne gets raped but not Sansa? That makes it seem like it isn't the rape that is the issue.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I don't think the show watchers want to be burdened with all the details that book readers are familiar with. For example, book readers have an idea what is happening with Arya, show watchers don't.

I'm actually a little surprised the post summarizing where the plots are in the show vs the book wasn't given a tougher time.

But regardless, I doubt show watchers want to read debates about the merits of the changes that have occurred, if characters like Lady Stoneheart will make an appearance later, or if there will be any other "re-sequencing" of events.

Some show watchers didn't even want non-spoiler back story explained from the books. I can't see them changing their stance now. If show watchers want things explained, they should come to this thread as opposed to muddying up the other thread.

I was talking more about whether book readers want this thread muddied up by talking about show plotlines that advanced further than they have yet to in the books.

[Bobblehead]

I think we are way past the point of worrying about that. The first TV Show spoilers for book people started last year - not going to put the toothpaste back in the tube now.

If there are any pure "book reader and haven't watched the show" people then they are pretty much going to need to stay off any social media until Martin finishes. Then they can start and police their own thread.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I would have asked in the other thread......

So it is OK that Sansa's best friend Jeyne gets raped but not Sansa? That makes it seem like it isn't the rape that is the issue.

It is also Jeyne 'posing' as Arya Stark. That is important to the storyline - the claim on Winterfell.
Not particularly important to Ramsay though - what they showed us on TV was nothing compared to the #### Ramsay did in the books. He is deranged

[Finger Cookin]

Cool, thanks.

So do we think Tyrion somehow stays in Mereen when (if?) Dany goes to Westeros? Obviously the chain of events is drastically different in the show, but is that a possible place for the books to go once Tyrion and Dany meet?

Do we think Stannis is killed at Winterfell in the books? It's left a little ambiguous on the show, but I kind of think he's dead. Assuming Shireen gets sacrificed in the books as well, but unbeknownst to Stannis and his soldiers, do we think it's enough to ensure his triumph at Winterfell?

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I would have asked in the other thread......

So it is OK that Sansa's best friend Jeyne gets raped but not Sansa? That makes it seem like it isn't the rape that is the issue.

I think it got a stronger reaction on the show because it was Sansa. She's been a central character and a POV character for some time. So Ramsay's actions are still terrible, but magnified in the show because they're committed against Sansa.

[Flash Walken]

Ok Folks, I'm in this thread now because I'm hoping things that have happened in the books won't be revealed in the next season.

If they are though, I"ll just take my lumps on it.

So, I was pretty shocked by the ending with Jon Snow. I thought he was THE main character in the whole story, the embodiment of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryan).

All the Stark Children seem to have fallen or nearly fallen at this point.

During the red wedding I thought maybe Catelyn would live, or have some kind of Harry Potter style spell/charm/curse that would prevent her from dying; you know how it works in fantasy, some sort of trade of her soul for vengeance or something. It looks like now though that that story is pretty much over.

Will we find anything out about her Brother/Cousin (The guy who was Brutus in the HBO's Rome?) Is that story discussed much in the books after the event?

[Finger Cookin]

Oh dear...Flash, I'm going to put this behind spoiler tags so you can choose whether you want to read this. Some of this may yet take place on the show in the coming seasons, so read at your own peril.

NSFW!

Last chance

Spoiler!

It's pretty much understood that Jon is not dead in the books. It's not shown in the show, but all of the Stark kids have warging ability of varying level of aptitude. Jon is likely going to warg into Ghost and be revived somehow. In the show, Melisandre returning to the Wall suggests a revival of some kind may also happen.

Catelyn is resurrected somewhat successfully in the books by Thoros of Myr. Her throat is still slashed, so she can't speak unless she wraps her hands around her throat to kind of hold it together. And she still looks ghastly and ghoulish on account of how long she was dead before being brought back. She is seeking revenge against any who wronged her (particularly Freys) and is using the Brotherhood of Banners for this purpose. She is called Lady Stoneheart in the books after her resurrection.

As for the Blackfish, he's still kicking around in the books but it's unclear as to whether he has a role to play.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

So, I was pretty shocked by the ending with Jon Snow. I thought he was THE main character in the whole story, the embodiment of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryan).

All the Stark Children seem to have fallen or nearly fallen at this point.

So did we all.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

During the red wedding I thought maybe Catelyn would live, or have some kind of Harry Potter style spell/charm/curse that would prevent her from dying; you know how it works in fantasy, some sort of trade of her soul for vengeance or something. It looks like now though that that story is pretty much over.

Here is your first lump -

Spoiler!

in the books, she is resurrected and is known as Lady Stoneheart. She has taken over for Berric Dondarrion. There is great debate about if she will appear in the show or not.

It is kind of hard to tell if this is going to occur on the show because so many other major book lines are gone.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Will we find anything out about her Brother/Cousin (The guy who was Brutus in the HBO's Rome?) Is that story discussed much in the books after the event?

Edmure? He is still married and gives Riverrun to Jaime (in the books Jaime never goes to Dorne) then becomes a hostage of House Lannister.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I would have asked in the other thread......

So it is OK that Sansa's best friend Jeyne gets raped but not Sansa? That makes it seem like it isn't the rape that is the issue.

No. Not at all. It's Still bad.

I'm not saying there is such a thing as "good" rape. Or that certain rape is ok. But I understand how it can serve the story.

My issue is more with how the show runners seem tone deaf on rape. I don't think the way they handled it served Sansa's story.

But you're right, it's easier to read when is a minor character. I'll will concede to that.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

No. Not at all. It's Still bad.

I'm not saying there is such a thing as "good" rape. Or that certain rape is ok. But I understand how it can serve the story.

My issue is more with how the show runners seem tone deaf on rape. I don't think the way they handled it served Sansa's story.

But you're right, it's easier to read when is a minor character. I'll will concede to that.

I do wonder if the showrunners aren't doing some of it just because it seems to be expected. But then perhaps this is supposed to reflect the age they are living in and it was common?

It is difficult to apply today's set of cultural standards against something that is supposed to be so different even though it sounds so similar.

On a more philosophical note - we know it is difficult not to whitewash history - "history is written by the winners" and so on. How do you apply present day standards to works of fiction that are written in the present day. Some schools pan Huck Finn because of the descriptions that he used, and I believe that is wrong. But does Martin deserve the same free pass since he is writing today? Maybe not for this thread, but something to consider.

[EldrickOnIce]

Jon could warg - where was Ghost? Is Jon Azor Ahai ('person' to lead the defense of humans vs the others) reborn?

The prophesy:
"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

Not sure exactly how this completely fits Jon though.

[Finger Cookin]

There's ton of specific imagery in the scene around Jon's death that allows the reader to draw that conclusion. Whether Martin intends that prophecy to actually come true or not is harder to say.

Originally Posted by A Dance with Dragons

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.
Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...

There's also imagery around the sigil of the knight Wun Wun killed that fits the red star bleeding.

It's obviously a big cliffhanger to be addressed in the coming books.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Jon could warg - where was Ghost? Is Jon Azor Ahai ('person' to lead the defense of humans vs the others) reborn?

The prophesy:
"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

Not sure exactly how this completely fits Jon though.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...e-text-proofs/

[GreenLantern]

When I was looking at the pictures that head 'leaked' for the finale I came across this one:



So I was fully expecting John to warg at the very end, I was swearing at my TV when it didn't happen. Someone trolled me good.

[Flash Walken]

It's such a relief to be able to participate in these discussions now.

I like predicting things.

So, the Jamie and Dorn thing is a pretty big difference from the books.

What is the context for Jamie taking over Riverrun? Is it part of a deal Edmure makes to stay alive? Is it spoils from the Red Wedding for the lannisters?

Part of a larger deal between house Frey, Bolton and Lannister, similar to the deal Roose Bolton secured for himself with Winterfell?