[Rumour] Friedman: Flames aggressive in trade market. Getting calls on Hudler.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Besides Kent Nilsson, Dan Quinn, Brett Hull, Mike Bullard, Joe Mullen, Doug Gilmour, Gary Suter, Mike Vernon, Al MacInnis, Joe Niewendyk, Phil Housley, Steve Chiasson, Robert Reichel, Gary Roberts, Theo Fleury, Cory Stillman, Derek Morris, Chris Drury, Alex Tanguay, Dion Phaneuf, and Jay Bouwmeester?

Haha, Mike Bullard for Doug Gilmour and Mark Hunter. Cliff Fletcher once told me that was his greatest trade ever. He always seemed to do OK in Doug Gilmour trades.

Maybe the Flames could go the Joe Mullen route with Hudler. Trade him because he is to old for the Flames. Acquire a pick that doesn't get even one NHL game. Then watch him have great seasons and win multiple cups with his new team. Hey, whatever it takes to make the team younger.

[iggyoi]

Can we retain 50pct of his salary in a deal? Suppose we can,great deal for both sides is hossa and oduya rights for hudler and jones 50pct retained.

[killer_carlson]

Is there a better $4,000,000 player in the NHL right now?

If you have a spot on your top 6 with only $4 million to spend, is there anyone who is an upgrade to Hudler?

Not any that I can think of.

Edit: I pulled the following from nhlnumbers.com. Johannson and McKinnon are not true comparibles.

Guys I`d take over Hudler from the rest:
Vorachek
Ladd?

Loui Erikson $4.5
Brad Marchand $4.5
Brian Gionta 4.25
Cody Hodgson 4.0
Brian Bickel 4.0
Nate McKinnon 3.75
Alex Tanguay 3.5
Scott Hartnell 4.75
Ryan Johanson 4.0
Ales Hemsky 4.0
Johan Franzon 3.95
Purcell 4.5
Pouliot 4.0
Jussi Jokinen 4.0
Nik Bjukstad 4.1
Gaborik 4.85
Pachoretti 4.5
PA Parenteau 4.0
Gallagher 3.75
Paul Gaustad 3.25
Ryan CLow 4.85
Henrique 4.0
Ruutu 3.85
Kulemin 4.18
Zuccarello 4.5
McCarther 4.5
Michalek 4
Turris 3.5
Vorachek 4.5
Simmonds 3.8
Hornqvist 4.25
Kunitz 3.8
Perron 3.8
Dupuis 3.75
Oshie 4.1
berglund 3.7
Tyler Johnson 3.33
Van Reimsdyk 4.25
Bozak 4.2
Burrows 4.5
Laich 4.5
Little 4.7
Ladd 4.4

[ForeverFlameFan]

I would not be surprised if Hudler was moved, he would be moved with 50% salary retention as well. Every cup contending team would be drooling over a 2m Hudler. And Treliving would have every right to ask for the world if that was the case.

[Mister Yamoto]

It is bad business to pay players to play for other teams. I'm glad that Treliving has hinted that he no longer wants to do that.

The poorest team in the league, Coyotes, will be paying Keith Yandle over 3 million to chase the cup with the Rangers. One of the NHLs richest teams. Am I the only one who thinks that that is seriously wrong?

If the Flames want to have one of the lowest payrolls in the league, so be it. But at least make sure every dollar goes to a player who is on the Flames.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

I would not be surprised if Hudler was moved, he would be moved with 50% salary retention as well. Every cup contending team would be drooling over a 2m Hudler. And Treliving would have every right to ask for the world if that was the case.

Haha, at firstI was like "Is this guy serious? we have a valuable trade chip and we're going to retain salary???!!".

But after thinking about it, retaining $2m for one year, which means nothing to us, but could potentially add 5 or 6 strong cap teams to the mix, willing to deal valuable future assets/picks for the chance at a 70 point, top line winger to put them over the top, could open up the world to us in a return.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

It is bad business to pay players to play for other teams. I'm glad that Treliving has hinted that he no longer wants to do that.

The poorest team in the league, Coyotes, will be paying Keith Yandle over 3 million to chase the cup with the Rangers. One of the NHLs richest teams. Am I the only one who thinks that that is seriously wrong?

If the Flames want to have one of the lowest payrolls in the league, so be it. But at least make sure every dollar goes to a player who is on the Flames.

And Burke was one of the biggest proponents of trading cap space.

There is nothing wrong with retaining salary if we trade somebody like Hudler. Short-term contracts will have no impact when out Cup window opens.

It could be the difference between a 1st round pick and a 2nd, or perhaps without salary retention, a trade wouldn't even be possible.

Treliving never hinted that he wouldn't retain salary in a trade in a short-term circumstance.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

It is bad business to pay players to play for other teams. I'm glad that Treliving has hinted that he no longer wants to do that.

The poorest team in the league, Coyotes, will be paying Keith Yandle over 3 million to chase the cup with the Rangers. One of the NHLs richest teams. Am I the only one who thinks that that is seriously wrong?

If the Flames want to have one of the lowest payrolls in the league, so be it. But at least make sure every dollar goes to a player who is on the Flames.

On a long term deal, yes I agree. However, a $2m Hudler on an expiring deal would have every would-be contender from here to Kalamazoo throwing their hat in on that action. In this particular instance, it could in fact be very, very good for business.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

It is bad business to pay players to play for other teams. I'm glad that Treliving has hinted that he no longer wants to do that.

The poorest team in the league, Coyotes, will be paying Keith Yandle over 3 million to chase the cup with the Rangers. One of the NHLs richest teams. Am I the only one who thinks that that is seriously wrong?

If the Flames want to have one of the lowest payrolls in the league, so be it. But at least make sure every dollar goes to a player who is on the Flames.

There's a HUGE difference between paying $2mil for ONE YEAR if it garners a significantly better return, than the host of teams paying many millions for many years after retaining salary/buy outs.

Not saying Hudler would for sure return more if we retain salary, but definitely an interesting point to consider, seeing as the teams that would want Hudler the most are also the teams tightest against the cap, and due to this are the teams most likely to give up significant future talent/picks for a cheap, top line guy.

Who knows, maybe Hudler at full salary is worth a first round pick and a solid prospect, but Hudler at 50% retained is worth a first round pick, and a blue chip prospect.

Don't get caught up in my trade scenario as it was completely made up to prove my point, but if I'm Flames management and $2mil can turn a decent prospect (which we have many, which may lead to said new prospect getting buried in the log jam and not panning out) into a blue chip, almost surefire NHL'er, I'm doing that 10 times out of 10.

[Mister Yamoto]

It's really easy to spend someone else's money.

Two million bucks can get you a lot of things. How much did they pay for the Hitmen? Roughnecks? Would you trade the Hitmen to move up 30 spots in the draft?

From a business perspective I just don't see moving from a 2nd to a 1st is worth 2 million. Not even close.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

It's really easy to spend someone else's money.

Two million bucks can get you a lot of things. How much did they pay for the Hitmen? Roughnecks? Would you trade the Hitmen to move up 30 spots in the draft?

From a business perspective I just don't see moving from a 2nd to a 1st is worth 2 million. Not even close.

I think a lot of teams would pay $2 million to go from, say, the 35th pick to the 25th.

[Stay Golden]

What more could a 4m player have provided for his employer than Hudler did.
If Hudler is traded for a ridiculous 2nd round pick the management /ownership truly is thankless and this would be a extremely poor message to send to Monahan and Johnny.
If they trade Hudler it would be in poor taste and it would effect in a negative way the vibe of this team.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

It's really easy to spend someone else's money.

Two million bucks can get you a lot of things. How much did they pay for the Hitmen? Roughnecks? Would you trade the Hitmen to move up 30 spots in the draft?

From a business perspective I just don't see moving from a 2nd to a 1st is worth 2 million. Not even close.

Well if that's what you believe then without sounding too dickish id suggest you don't understand the value of draft picks/prospects to teams.

A lot of teams would pay millions to move up from the second to first round or from a decent prospect to a blue chipper.

[dying4acup]

I trade Hudler for a good return.

The LA Kings are ideal. Alec Martinez would be my target. If the Kings were dealing from a position of strength, I think Hudler and Martinez would be equal value.

Given the Kings ACTUAL position of weakness:

Martinez + 1st round pick for Hudler with 50% retained.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Is there a better $4,000,000 player in the NHL right now?

If you have a spot on your top 6 with only $4 million to spend, is there anyone who is an upgrade to Hudler?

Not any that I can think of.

Edit: I pulled the following from nhlnumbers.com. Johannson and McKinnon are not true comparibles.

Guys I`d take over Hudler from the rest:
Vorachek
Ladd?

Loui Erikson $4.5
Brad Marchand $4.5
Brian Gionta 4.25
Cody Hodgson 4.0
Brian Bickel 4.0
Nate McKinnon 3.75
Alex Tanguay 3.5
Scott Hartnell 4.75
Ryan Johanson 4.0
Ales Hemsky 4.0
Johan Franzon 3.95
Purcell 4.5
Pouliot 4.0
Jussi Jokinen 4.0
Nik Bjukstad 4.1
Gaborik 4.85
Pachoretti 4.5
PA Parenteau 4.0
Gallagher 3.75
Paul Gaustad 3.25
Ryan CLow 4.85
Henrique 4.0
Ruutu 3.85
Kulemin 4.18
Zuccarello 4.5
McCarther 4.5
Michalek 4
Turris 3.5
Vorachek 4.5
Simmonds 3.8
Hornqvist 4.25
Kunitz 3.8
Perron 3.8
Dupuis 3.75
Oshie 4.1
berglund 3.7
Tyler Johnson 3.33
Van Reimsdyk 4.25
Bozak 4.2
Burrows 4.5
Laich 4.5
Little 4.7
Ladd 4.4

You'd take Ladd over Hudler? Really?? No way I would ever do that straight up.

[dying4acup]

Originally Posted by Karl

You'd take Ladd over Hudler? Really?? No way I would ever do that straight up.

I would. He's a centre. He's big. He's a leader. And he's a defensive star. I think he is younger as well.

[daveinspruce]

Why not trade him for some new toys this year and then sign him next year as a free agent.

[kn]

I can see a 1st rounder and a solid young player being the asking price. I don't see anyone willing or able to part with that.

If Hudler has anywhere near a season like he had this year, we won't be able to sign him for the dollars and term he will be asking. If we try and trade him at the deadline, we won't get the same value we will by trading him now. It makes sense for the franchise.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by dying4acup

I would. He's a centre. He's big. He's a leader. And he's a defensive star. I think he is younger as well.

Ladd's a LW.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Well if that's what you believe then without sounding too dickish id suggest you don't understand the value of draft picks/prospects to teams.

A lot of teams would pay millions to move up from the second to first round or from a decent prospect to a blue chipper.

No, I don't fully understand the value of draft picks/prospects. It's a very difficult thing to quantify. If you paid 2 million in salary retention to move up 30 spots in the draft, and the player you get turns out to be a star, you make that money back no problem. If the player you get scores even just one huge playoff goal, you make the money back in extra playoff revenue. But by the same logic, that player could also make a mistake that could cost the team a playoff round. Or that player could just bust outright. And on top of that, you don't really know what you are getting until years later.

I decided to compare the 25th overall pick to the 55th pick for a decade. (Moving up from a 2nd to a 1st)

2000 Ott, Vermette
2001 Perezhogin, Pominville
2002 Ward, Grot
2003 Anthony Stewart, Stefan Meyer
2004 Schremp, Oreskovich
2005 Cogliano, Mcquaid
2006 Berglund, Bedrov
2007 Patrick White, TJ Galiardi
2008 Nemisz, Scandella
2009 Caron, Orlov

In 02 and 06 the 1st beats the second by miles. Ward won a Conn Smythe, That alone is worth way more than 2 million. In 05 the 1st was better, but not by a huge margin. Debatable whether or not that would be worth 2 million.

In 01 and 08 the 2nd is better by a wide margin. And in 2000 the 2nd was also better.

The other 4 drafts were petty much all ties featuring fringe players or guys who didn't make it at all.

So, out of 10 drafts, paying 2 million to move up would be a good move 2 or maybe even 3 times. And one of those being an absolute home run.

4 drafts it didn't really make a difference. Well, no difference except for the 2 million taken from your bottom line and added to another teams bottom line.

And 3 times you would actually give up the better player AND give 2 million. Explain that one to the owner.


I don't think a one round move up is worth 2 million. And I don't think buyouts or salary retention (paying players to play for someone else)makes sense from a business perspective and in most cases is also a bad move from a hockey perspective.

I miss the days where Sam Pollock would go to GM meetings with a roll of 100s and when people started getting drunk he'd just start buying 7th round draft picks for 100$ each. Now THAT move makes sense.