Truth and Reconciliation Commission

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

Sorry to be a broken record, but it is all in the report, complete with a list of recommendations for what should be done to help remedy the situation.

What is so frustrating is not that you have your own opinion about this, but that you are arguing a point without actually educating yourself by reading the document. A lot of the opinions you have expressed are actually directly spoken to in the report.

I don't believe you've read the full 400 page report either.

I skimmed it, and most of it is adding it to the cirriculum (agree), providing resources for kids (ie. pay money), and basically having our national identity recognizing our horrible legacy (disagree).

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Regorium

I don't believe you've read the full 400 page report either.

I skimmed it, and most of it is adding it to the cirriculum (agree), providing resources for kids (ie. pay money), and basically having our national identity recognizing our horrible legacy (disagree).

The providing money bit is supposed to bring services (i.e. education and health care) for aboriginals in line with the rest of Canada. Why do you disagree with recognizing this horrible legacy as part of our national identity?

[polak]

It should definitely be taught and I'm pretty sure I was taught about it in high school, although probably not with enough emphasis.

I don't agree with shaming modern day Canadians with this though.

Originally Posted by rubecube

Also, lumping them all together and calling them "the natives" has a pretty strong tinge of racism to it. I know it probably wasn't intentional but that's how it comes across.

You're grouping all of us white people together... Literally doing the exact same thing just to the other side.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

You're grouping all of us white people together...

I am? Pretty sure I was speaking to one particular poster.

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Do you think that Germans school children shouldn't have to learn about or at least be aware of the holocaust? Because they didn't commit those crimes either.

Learning about it is fine, it's a part of Canada's history and you can't change that.

What does need to change is it being constantly brought up and attempts made to continually force financial restitution for it. Have one final kick at the can, then close the matter both financially and legally. No more court cases over it, no more demands for apologies and no more demands for money.

Once that is done, we can move on to fixing the rest of the issues that exist. Mainly the reserve system and the systemic corruption and financial mismanagement that goes on.

One of the things that is continually brought up is that FN people feel they don't have the same rights as other Canadians. It's probably time to change that and provide all FN people with the same rights as other Canadians. This would include the removal of the exceptions and additional rights granted to them though.

[polak]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I am? Pretty sure I was speaking to one particular poster.

I mean on this issue as a whole.

"WE white people should feel terrible for something WE white people did" when in reality it was "Some white people made decisions in a different world."

Decisions modern Canadians have now reversed.

Not saying we shouldn't recognize that it happened and teach it in school but I think it's wrong to keep pointing the blame at modern day Canadians. We don't still blame the Germans for the Holocaust...

At what point can we expect the different native bands to take responsibility of correcting their internal issues instead of pointing back at history?

We know we have to get rid of the reserve system, We know handing out large sums of money to a demographic that is ripe with addiction struggles is a bad idea, We know that they need to start to integrate with Canadian society... These are all MODERN day issues.

Lets fix that instead of constantly talking about what used to happen and giving out handouts.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

I mean on this issue as a whole.

"WE white people should feel terrible for something WE white people did" when in reality it was "Some white people made decisions in a different world."

Decisions modern Canadians have now reversed.

Not saying we shouldn't recognize that it happened and teach it in school but I think it's wrong to keep pointing the blame at modern day Canadians. We don't still blame the Germans for the Holocaust...

At what point can we expect the different native bands to take responsibility of correcting their internal issues instead of pointing back at history?

We know we have to get rid of the reserve system, We know handing out large sums of money to a demographic that is ripe with addiction struggles is a bad idea, We know that they need to start to integrate with Canadian society... These are all MODERN day issues.

Lets fix that instead of constantly talking about what used to happen and giving out handouts.

Perhaps it is about building a foundation of trust so the future relationship is strong.

I am sure there is a bible verse about building on sand vs building on rock.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Perhaps it is about building a foundation of trust so the future relationship is strong.

I am sure there is a bible verse about building on sand vs building on rock.

I don't think the bible is the best moral compass. They were the main offenders in this case of residential schools along with the government.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

I don't think the bible is the best moral compass. They were the main offenders in this case of residential schools along with the government.

I don't think i am religious, but thanks.

[polak]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Perhaps it is about building a foundation of trust so the future relationship is strong.

I am sure there is a bible verse about building on sand vs building on rock.

If there's anything that instills trust in a relationship, it's cash.

I respect the calls for investment into native communities. I despise large sum payments.

[driveway]

Arguing that modern white Canadians shouldn't feel shame over the actions of past white Canadians is identical to saying modern Canadians shouldn't feel pride over the actions of past Canadians.

But I'm sure Handsome B. Wonderful, Regorium, Northendzone, Redvan, and polak will be logically consistent and utterly silent come next November 11th; or come 2017 when we remember 100 years since Vimy Ridge, something they had absolutely nothing to do with, and therefore no reason to have any feelings regarding it.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

One of the things that is continually brought up is that FN people feel they don't have the same rights as other Canadians. It's probably time to change that and provide all FN people with the same rights as other Canadians. This would include the removal of the exceptions and additional rights granted to them though.

Except removing those exceptions wouldn't make them equal. You're talking about formal equality, which is much different than the equality of results that are necessary to reverse years of systemic discrimination. Additionally most of these rights and exceptions were/are constitutionally guaranteed. I really wonder how many people have any understanding at all of how constitutional law works, and just exactly what is required to make the sweeping changes they're talking about. It's a logistical nightmare and that doesn't even get into the ethics of it.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I don't think i am religious, but thanks.

Sorry wasn't accusing you of being so. Just taking shots at the bible, not really your post.

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Except removing those exceptions wouldn't make them equal. You're talking about formal equality, which is much different than the equality of results that are necessary to reverse years of systemic discrimination. Additionally most of these rights and exceptions were/are constitutionally guaranteed. I really wonder how many people have any understanding at all of how constitutional law works, and just exactly what is required to make the sweeping changes they're talking about. It's a logistical nightmare and that doesn't even get into the ethics of it.

You can legislate formal equality, but you can't legislate discrimination. Formal equality would be the first step to removing the discrimination that FN people face.

[polak]

Originally Posted by driveway

Arguing that modern white Canadians shouldn't feel shame over the actions of past white Canadians is identical to saying modern Canadians shouldn't feel pride over the actions of past Canadians.

But I'm sure Handsome B. Wonderful, Regorium, Northendzone, Redvan, and polak will be logically consistent and utterly silent come next November 11th; or come 2017 when we remember 100 years since Vimy Ridge, something they had absolutely nothing to do with, and therefore no reason to have any feelings regarding it.

I don't take credit for the acts of others.

I don't sit there and pat myself on the back on remembrance day? I go and honor those that fought.

Conversely, I don't take blame for acts of others. I look back and learn from their mistakes.

[CliffFletcher]

People realize that the church was the only source of welfare and aid for the poor that existed up until about 60 years ago, right? It's a pretty dubious organization, but it's all we had.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

People realize that the church was the only source of welfare and aid for the poor that existed up until about 60 years ago, right? It's a pretty dubious organization, but it's all we had.

Doesn't make it good. I recall them considering non-memebers as slaves or 'serfs'. I don't want to get into a debate about the failings of the church as there are too many and ain't nobody got time for that.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by polak

I don't take credit for the acts of others.

I don't sit there and pat myself on the back on remembrance day? I go and honor those that fought.

Conversely, I don't take blame for acts of others. I look back and learn from their mistakes.

And how are you going to honour the 6,000 dead who did not volunteer, who did not die for King and Country, who did nothing other than be Native and be children?

Wear a poppy?

[Two Fivenagame]

Can we also blame the christians since it seems they were heavily involved?

I would love to see any funding required for restorative programs to come from the church.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Except removing those exceptions wouldn't make them equal. You're talking about formal equality, which is much different than the equality of results that are necessary to reverse years of systemic discrimination. Additionally most of these rights and exceptions were/are constitutionally guaranteed. I really wonder how many people have any understanding at all of how constitutional law works, and just exactly what is required to make the sweeping changes they're talking about. It's a logistical nightmare and that doesn't even get into the ethics of it.

You're assuming that systemic discrimination is what's keeping Natives from achieving equal of results. I'd suggest contact with a far more powerful and advanced culture, along with decimation by disease, left Native culture basically shattered. Not to mention the fact their traditional economic system is no longer viable. So you're looking at rebuilding a society almost from scratch.

Some of that can be done with external infrastructure and support. But there are limits. Ultimately, it comes down to skills and values. As recently as 70 years ago, Korea was one of the most impoverished and technologically backward places on earth. Overwhelmingly agrarian, under the thumb of first China and then Japan. An arena for a proxy war by the superpowers in the 50s, devastated in its aftermath. American money and industry helped rebuild Korea. But what set Koreans on the path to security and prosperity were cultural values regarding family, money, and skills. In a generation or two, Korean became a modern, prosperous, self-reliant country.

You can't just wave your hand and inculcate those values in a society. Especially societies as devastated and demoralized as Canada's native societies. However, until they are inculcated, external aid will have little enduring effect.

Yes, there are treaties that must be honoured. But living off transfers from the state is enervating for anyone, and fosters a culture of dependency. And let's keep in mind that some of wealthiest bands in Canada in terms of per capital income, bands that receive millions of dollars a year from resource rights, have some of the worst social problems. Money doesn't make people more attentive parents, or more disciplined and ambitious about education and training.

Then there's the whole matter of reserves. I'd wager non-Native Canadians who live in isolated rural communities with low rates of school completion and high rates of substance abuse have very low incomes compared to the rest of Canada. 50 years from now we may very well look at the reserve system with the same dismay and disbelief that we regard the residential school system with.