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Old 06-07-2015, 01:46 PM   #1841
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Originally Posted by kehatch View Post
How many times have we seen great performances in the WJC by players that never make it? You can't cherry pick good or bad chunks of a players season and use it to make a case.
No one brought up the Tournament All-Star selection as a reason he'd make the NHL. It was mentioned as a reaction to the statement that Jankowski only had a solid frozen four. Clearly it was more then solid as he was one of the top forwards and players overall.

Another point from a different post.
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In close to 50 prospects evaluated only 3 produced at Jankowski's rate and made the NHL. None of them are offensive producers in the NHL. All three are bottom six physical grit guys (a role that Jankowski doesn't fit). Does anyone have other examples that I missed?
The NHL is shifting in terms of toughness. The bottom two lines aren't the gritty bash and bang lines they used to be. At most that's what the 4th line is but even that is debatable.

Personally in a third line role you want smart two-way players. Can handle minutes but be hybrid players capable of jumping up onto the next line when needed. Good support players.

As for comparables, Kevin Hayes had point totals of 14, 28 and 25 until exploding in his 4th year for 65 points. That's less points in his first 3 seasons then Bill Arnold had. He seemed to do okay for himself and didn't have the defensive responsibilities or faceoff acumen that Jankowski had through his sophomore and junior seasons.
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Old 06-07-2015, 01:47 PM   #1842
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I see his development as like the minimum you would hope for. If it was less you'd probably label him a bust. If it was more you'd probably be pretty excited.
Are you speaking for his all around game or point totals only?

Because if it's all around game, two-way defensive game, that's not true at all. Jankowski's development in those areas is anything but the minimum.
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Old 06-07-2015, 01:49 PM   #1843
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Kind of just common knowledge. We've all seen the Hobey Baker list.
Okay, let's filter the Hobey Baker, last 25 years list for players 20 or younger:

Jack Eichel (18)
Johnny Gaudreau (20)
Ryan Miller (20)
Paul Kariya (19)

Four players have won Hobey Baker at Jankowski's age in the last 25 years in college hockey. I'm pretty sure there's way more than four players who played college hockey at Jankowski's age who have made the NHL, though.

looking at 23-24 year olds who are winning these awards and using that as evidence that the league doesn't produce NHLers is absurd. A 24 year old senior in NCAA is about the same as a 20 year old in Junior overager. It's a terrible "example" to use to prove a point.

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How many times have we seen great performances in the WJC by players that never make it? You can't cherry pick good or bad chunks of a players season and use it to make a case.
FOr Team Canada? A stacked team where role players can have inflated stats from playing with stars?

Tell me, is that a good parallel to Jankowski? Which star inflates his stats? The parallel you're drawing works for Ahti Oksanen, who was a beneficiary of how awesome Jack Eichel is. It doesn't work for an NHL drafted player who was the only forward on his entire team to be named to the list, despite his team WINNING the championship.
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Old 06-07-2015, 01:54 PM   #1844
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How many times have we seen great performances in the WJC by players that never make it? You can't cherry pick good or bad chunks of a players season and use it to make a case.

That said, his frozen four performance was certainly a "remember me" statement by a prospect that was on the verge of being forgotten. Partly due to his results, and partly due to the growth in the Flames prospect pool.
What have I cherry picked? I pointed out where he started and what his top accomplishment is so far. No more, no less.

But if you want to compare his performance to the WJC, you would have to compare his performance to that of a great performance by a 17 or 18 year old in the tournament. But this is also 2 years in a row that Jankowski has been the Frairs top forward in the NCAA tournament. He was named to the NCAA all-star team for his region last year too. Two years in a row is the start of a pattern.
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Old 06-07-2015, 01:57 PM   #1845
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Another point from a different post.

The NHL is shifting in terms of toughness. The bottom two lines aren't the gritty bash and bang lines they used to be. At most that's what the 4th line is but even that is debatable.

Personally in a third line role you want smart two-way players. Can handle minutes but be hybrid players capable of jumping up onto the next line when needed. Good support players.

As for comparables, Kevin Hayes had point totals of 14, 28 and 25 until exploding in his 4th year for 65 points. That's less points in his first 3 seasons then Bill Arnold had. He seemed to do okay for himself and didn't have the defensive responsibilities or faceoff acumen that Jankowski had through his sophomore and junior seasons.
I agree with you on the top. The bottom 9 is shifting to some degree. You need to fill a role in the bottom 9. Ability to PK, secondary scoring, size, etc. But it isn't just tough grit guys anymore.

On the bottom, Hayes isn't a good comparable. he doubled his offensive production between the first and second seasons. He then doubled his point per game between the second and third seasons (he didn't play half the season in year 3). He was a point per game player in season 3.
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Old 06-07-2015, 02:32 PM   #1846
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No one brought up the Tournament All-Star selection as a reason he'd make the NHL. It was mentioned as a reaction to the statement that Jankowski only had a solid frozen four. Clearly it was more then solid as he was one of the top forwards and players overall.
So we're arguing that the word "solid" didn't describe his performance well enough?
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Old 06-07-2015, 02:35 PM   #1847
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So we're arguing that the word "solid" didn't describe his performance well enough?
Yeah, we were. Thought it was interesting that's as much love as someone would give him. I just pointed out "solid" would be a conservative rating of his play during that tournament. Call that silly if you'd like but that was the context of the conversation.

You bringing up the list of former all-stars had nothing to do with anything at that point, not one person suggested that being a Frozen Four star meant instant NHL stardom. You used that as another random springboard.
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Old 06-07-2015, 02:35 PM   #1848
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Okay, let's filter the Hobey Baker, last 25 years list for players 20 or younger:

Jack Eichel (18)
Johnny Gaudreau (20)
Ryan Miller (20)
Paul Kariya (19)

Four players have won Hobey Baker at Jankowski's age in the last 25 years in college hockey. I'm pretty sure there's way more than four players who played college hockey at Jankowski's age who have made the NHL, though.

looking at 23-24 year olds who are winning these awards and using that as evidence that the league doesn't produce NHLers is absurd. A 24 year old senior in NCAA is about the same as a 20 year old in Junior overager. It's a terrible "example" to use to prove a point.



FOr Team Canada? A stacked team where role players can have inflated stats from playing with stars?

Tell me, is that a good parallel to Jankowski? Which star inflates his stats? The parallel you're drawing works for Ahti Oksanen, who was a beneficiary of how awesome Jack Eichel is. It doesn't work for an NHL drafted player who was the only forward on his entire team to be named to the list, despite his team WINNING the championship.
This might be some good research if Jankowski had won the Hobey Baker but since he hasn't I don't even understand why your rambling on about this.
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Old 06-07-2015, 02:45 PM   #1849
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Yeah, we were. Thought it was interesting that's as much love as someone would give him. I just pointed out "solid" would be a conservative rating of his play during that tournament. Call that silly if you'd like but that was the context of the conversation.

You bringing up the list of former all-stars had nothing to do with anything at that point, not one person suggested that being a Frozen Four star meant instant NHL stardom. You used that as another random springboard.
Well what was the point of saying he made the tournament all star game? That he performed well and it was good progression to see? Basicslly exactly what I said when I posted the list. Is there something so wrong with adding to that and trying to put everything into perspective? Are we only allowed to post Jankowski's praises and ignore everything else? I think you take issue with it because you think I'm hoping on his failure which is not true.
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Old 06-07-2015, 02:48 PM   #1850
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Well what was the point of saying he made the tournament all star game? That he performed well and it was good progression to see? Basicslly exactly what I said when I posted the list. Is there something so wrong with adding to that and trying to put everything into perspective? Are we only allowed to post Jankowski's praises and ignore everything else? I think you take issue with it because you think I'm hoping on his failure which is not true.
Here's the progression
- An argument was being made that Janko had a great tournament
- You minimized it by calling it "solid"
- Someone posted he was an all star to further support the notion his tournament was better than solid

You were the one that then took the leap to assume that the person was using that as evidence that he was a good chance to make the NHL and pulled a list together to prove otherwise. No one was making this argument - so you started to argue a completely different point.

Basically you started to argue against a position that no one had taken - which is that him making the all-star team was somehow strong evidence on his likelihood to make the NHL. No one stated that. The point was being made in support of how good a tournament he has.
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Old 06-07-2015, 02:54 PM   #1851
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Well what was the point of saying he made the tournament all star game? That he performed well and it was good progression to see? Basicslly exactly what I said when I posted the list. Is there something so wrong with adding to that and trying to put everything into perspective? Are we only allowed to post Jankowski's praises and ignore everything else? I think you take issue with it because you think I'm hoping on his failure which is not true.
It's like talking to a wall, a very slow wall.
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Old 06-07-2015, 03:09 PM   #1852
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I don't even understand why you're rambling on about this.
Okay, since your reading comprehension is at a similar level to your spelling, I'll break it down for you by aggregating my two posts into one post and then boldfacing "why" I am rambling on about this.

But before that, let's examine your claim:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackey
We've all seen the Hobey Baker list. We all have a general idea of the best players to come out of the NCAA. So no I didn't search the list hoping for anything, I already knew what would be on there. A lot of names most people haven't heard of.
Your implication here, is that Hobey Baker winners are the best players to come out of the NCAA. There's no sidestepping of that statement - these are your words. You're drawing a correlation between Hobey Baker and NCAA All-Tournament teams as lacking value due to the presence of non-NHL players. That's the only reason you even brought the Hobey Baker up - to artifically evidence that NCAA produces so few real NHLers. The other implication here, is that you ::weren't:: expecting Jonathan Toews, Zach Parise, Johnny Gaudreau, Marty St. Louis, Blake Wheeler, Phil Kessel, Kyle Turris, Danny DeKeyser, Ryan McDonagh, Torey Krug, Kevin Hayes etc to be on the All-Tournament teams list.

Now this is a combination of what I posted, all of which was directed in response to your assertions:

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That's a fair point as it would be for any non-pro league. So let's filter it out and look at the guys who, since 1990, like Jankowski were

1)20YO or younger at the time (since the list is littered with fully grown men who were, 23+):

2)Drafted by an NHL team (i.e. players who showed before NCAA play that they had NHL upside)

3)Listed 5'11 or taller

Mark Jankowski (20)
Jack Eichel (18)
Anthony Florentino (20)
Shayne Gostisbehere (20)
Brian Dumoulin (20)
Jon Merrill (18)
Brian Rolston (20)
Paul Kariya (19, actually under 5'11)
Brian Rolston (19)

That's what I ended up, going down the list. Looks like pretty select company over a 25 year period. 8 players in 15 years. 7 if you cut Kariya out to stick with the filter. But not sure why anyone would cut Paul frickin Kariya out of such a list.

let's filter the Hobey Baker, last 25 years list for players 20 or younger:

Jack Eichel (18)
Johnny Gaudreau (20)
Ryan Miller (20)
Paul Kariya (19)

Four players have won Hobey Baker at Jankowski's age in the last 25 years in college hockey. I'm pretty sure there's way more than four players who played college hockey at Jankowski's age who have made the NHL, though.

looking at 23-24 year olds who are winning these awards and using that as evidence that the league doesn't produce NHLers is absurd. A 24 year old senior in NCAA is about the same as a 20 year old in Junior overager. It's a terrible "example" to use to prove a point.
Do you now understand? Players falling under similar criteria to Mark Jankowski, who are named to or win national awards like this, are generally not no-name players. They're outliers, most of whom went on to have pretty good NHL careers. Jury's still out on the younger players, because they're respectively a 23 old D, a 22 year old who's 5'11 and missed a whole pro season with a torn ACL, and three players who made the team simultaneously in the same year and still haven't had any opportunity at a pro career - that's pretty historic for three players in the same year to fit the same criteria after only five players over the previous 24 years did so.
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Old 06-07-2015, 03:24 PM   #1853
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So we're arguing that the word "solid" didn't describe his performance well enough?
Yes, solid as in the Conn Smythe winner had a solid playoffs. Some of the arguments you make are ridiculous.
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Old 06-07-2015, 03:33 PM   #1854
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This thread is making me want to blow my brains out which is a real bummer because i am very interested in jankowski.

Maybe I can redirect the thread. Does anyone know how well jankowski did at the combine?
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Old 06-07-2015, 03:37 PM   #1855
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Maybe I can redirect the thread. Does anyone know how well jankowski did at the combine?
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=80653

Seems to have been on a few of these top 10 results.
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Old 06-07-2015, 03:42 PM   #1856
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http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=80653

Seems to have been on a few of these top 10 results.
To be fair, so was Matt Deblouw.
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Old 06-07-2015, 04:05 PM   #1857
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My only conclusion after reading this thread is that Hackey=Moon
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Old 06-07-2015, 04:24 PM   #1858
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My only conclusion after reading this thread is that Hackey=Moon
This is exactly what I was thinking
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Old 06-07-2015, 04:24 PM   #1859
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Here's the progression
- An argument was being made that Janko had a great tournament
- You minimized it by calling it "solid"
- Someone posted he was an all star to further support the notion his tournament was better than solid

You were the one that then took the leap to assume that the person was using that as evidence that he was a good chance to make the NHL and pulled a list together to prove otherwise. No one was making this argument - so you started to argue a completely different point.

Basically you started to argue against a position that no one had taken - which is that him making the all-star team was somehow strong evidence on his likelihood to make the NHL. No one stated that. The point was being made in support of how good a tournament he has.
I wasn't the one who said his tournament was "solid" so it would appear your the one taking the leap and arguing over nothing. Telling me I was trying to minimize his tournament when I wasn't even the one who said that. But yes keep telling me what I mean even after I clarify differently.
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Old 06-07-2015, 04:28 PM   #1860
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You are right it wasn't you.
The rest of my point stands. You were arguing against a position that no one was taking.
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