[News] With the 21st overall pick Flames select C Mark Jankowski

[JohnnySkittles]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Actually right now it is neither with the potential to be either.

No, right now it's a negative pick considering what was available at #14 and how those players have shown at the NHL level, yet we traded down for Janko. It could very well become a great pick, but as of today 10/10 times you take another guy.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkittles

No, right now it's a negative pick considering what was available at #14 and how those players have shown at the NHL level, yet we traded down for Janko. It could very well become a great pick, but as of today 10/10 times you take another guy.

I don't how some people still don't grasp this.
Nothing has changed.
When the Flames picked Janko they knew he would
- Not make the NHL for a number of years
- Go to University to play his hockey
- That there would likely be several guys selected before or even after him that made the NHL before he did

So to say that it was a 'bad decision' when nothing except what EVERYONE KNEW WOULD HAPPEN has happened - is just a really poor way to assess this.

The only way you could call this a bad decision right now is if Janko wasn't a legit prospect still. He is. So you can't.

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

And that is exactly what I'd expect to hear from a Sabres fan.

But am I wrong? I'm not romanticizing him because he's a Sabre, the guy's been legitimately pretty good and looking like someone that could easily be a consistent 20 goal, 20 assist guy (maybe better, some of his goals have been sensational and he'll be getting better linemates) with solid defensive awareness to center the third line and is a good physical player. I'm sure everyone would be over the moon if Jankowski turns out to be a player like that -- especially with Monahan/Bennett as the obvious 1/2 going forward, Girgensons would be an amazing third line center on this team next year.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Labelling it as negative speaks more to ones mindset going into this more than anything.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Labelling it as negative speaks more to ones mindset going into this more than anything.

That's just it. I think people mistakenly label this debate as the people saying it was a bad pick against saying it was a good pick.
That's not it really.
It is those making a premature judgement v. those saying wait until the guy at least turns pro.

[Vulcan]

Here's how Jankowski's expectations went for me.

First year at college, make the team, get use to playing a structured game, work out and put on muscle. I'd say it was generally a success.

Second year, move to centre which will require some more adjusting. Continue improving his physical strength and team play while increasing his offence. Seemed to be on track but what kind of track was it when we couldn't expect any dividends for 5 or 6 years.

Third year, take over as first line centre, improve his points total to hopefully a PPG as well as improving his strength and size. His point totals didn't improve much and he seemed to stagnate in that department as well as not appearing to be the teams first line centre. Lessening expectations causing more controversy as a good pick but he had a good NCAA tournament at end of year.

Here's the other way to look at his development.

After the draft, he's going to be our next Joe Nieuwendyk

Second year, still developing so hard to say what we have.

Third year, lowering expectations but he's going to be our next Joel Otto. Trouble is he isn't a physical player although he's defensively sound so we can still pencil him in as a third line player. This is where one can say, why didn't we just draft Girgensons who we wouldn't have had to wait for and at the time was more of a sure thing?

[JiriHrdina]

Personally I find it far tougher to project U.S. college players than guys coming out of junior. It seems so much comes down to systems they play, the quality of the opponents, and who the player is paired with. Some I'm hesitant to draw too many conclusions, good or bad, from his play in Uni. I just don't know.

But to your question - they drafted a guy that maybe had a similar perceived floor as a guy like Girgensons but a higher ceiling - so you take a chance on that upside, particularly for a franchise, that at the time, needed to take a couple of home run swings.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Here's how Jankowski's expectations went for me.

First year at college, make the team, get use to playing a structured game, work out and put on muscle. I'd say it was generally a success.

Second year, move to centre which will require some more adjusting. Continue improving his physical strength and team play while increasing his offence. Seemed to be on track but what kind of track was it when we couldn't expect any dividends for 5 or 6 years.

Third year, take over as first line centre, improve his points total to hopefully a PPG as well as improving his strength and size. His point totals didn't improve much and he seemed to stagnate in that department as well as not appearing to be the teams first line centre. Lessening expectations causing more controversy as a good pick but he had a good NCAA tournament at end of year.

Here's the other way to look at his development.

After the draft, he's going to be our next Joe Nieuwendyk

Second year, still developing so hard to say what we have.

Third year, lowering expectations but he's going to be our next Joel Otto. Trouble is he isn't a physical player although he's defensively sound so we can still pencil him in as a third line player. This is where one can say, why didn't we just draft Girgensons who we wouldn't have had to wait for and is a sure thing?

Please tell me how Girgensons was a guarantee to be what he is right now? If it was that simple, wouldn't teams already be drafting so-called "sure things"? He could've easily busted or toiled the minors like Sven did.

I just don't get it, why don't the nay-sayers let it play out? For all we know Janko might be a Patrice Bergeron or he could be a Rico Fata but only time will tell.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

There was a 1000 post thread before the 2013 draft with the poll Lindholm or Monahan or other.... Lindholm 333, Monahan 311 other 31...


I would suggest that with Lindhom picked at #5 CP would have been pretty united in hating any pick other than Monahan.


I argued for Monahan because he was bigger than Lindholm.....and Lindholm had only 1 minor penalty the whole year in the SEL.

Now Lindholm had 108 hits over the regular season to Monahans 39.

Happy that we got Monahan rather than Lindholm even though Lindholm turned out to be a more aggressive/physical presence.

Yeah, you didn't just argue Monahan was bigger, you vehemently argued Lindholm was a soft player despite all evidence to the contrary.

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Yes.... He is a soft very talented scorer.


Are you saying that he is something other than a soft talented forward? How would you claim this?

Nothing wrong with being a soft talented scorer.

The Flames have emptied the cupboard of tough forwards. They have loaded up on soft talented guys..... Even if Lindholm is extremely talented he will not be successful on a small soft team ..... (Edmonton, Calgary).

To argue that a guy who is so disengaged physically that he only takes 1 minor penalty in 50 games is not soft is incredulous.

If the Flames do draft Lindholm and he is NHL ready in 2014-15 who will be his linemates? What will it cost the Flames to pick up Dustin Brown? Keep in mind that Baertschi has to be protected as well.

Originally Posted by ricardodw

why do you feel he plays physical ?


2 PIM in 48 games????

Compared to Fosberg who had 102 PIM in his last 50 games in Sweden before he joined Quebec.


Even the Sedins had 22 and 28 PIM in their last year in Sweden.


Seems to be extra soft even for the team the Flames have become.

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames have put themselves into a position where they just can't ignore the toughness aspect of the game.

If there are two players with close to equal skill the Flames have to pick the one with the extra grit.

Cundari over Smith
Regher over Butler
Mcgratton over Alui over Byron

Even though both Smith and Butler are both "Couture/Sedin" tough.

Bouma or Hanowski over Horak
Rienhart over Cervenka



Monahan over Lindolm.


Horton over Hudler or Cammalleri or Tanguay or Stajan or Stempniak.

Baertschi and 2 of Hudler or Cammalleri or Tanguay or Stajan or Stempniak should be our talented non-gritty guys. all 5 of them are talented but none of them are going to create room for Baertschi or come to his defense in a scrum.

If you want Lindholm then you have to get rid of all but one of Hudler, Cammalleri,Tanguay Stajan or Stempniak...

If you want Lindholm and Gaudreau and Baertshi in the line-up then there is no room for any of the fab 5 (Tanguay, Cammalleri,Hudler, Stajan or Stempniak)

Backlund , in my mind, has graduated out of the all-skill no-grit category.

When Monahan as a 17 year old took a cheap shot he didn't like he went and whaled on Mitchell Heard who was a 20 year old who fights a lot.



If Monahan is within 10% of Lindholm's skill set and the Flames don't go for the big D-man Nurse then it is fairly obvious that the Flames will pick Monahan.

Originally Posted by ricardodw

What doesn't make sense is that none of the Lindholm is so tough we can't stand it crowd doesn't know how to do a little research and push back at me with some facts rather than feelings.



I get a feeling that someone read a blurb that compared Lindholm to Peter Forsberg who was nails tough and the sheep just went with he has to be tough.


Peter Forsberg , by the way, stayed another 4 years in Sweden and came to Quebec .... not the team that drafted him as a 22 year old.

[Caged Great]

Nobody could have predicted that in the two following drafts that the Flames would have the top center arguably in each fall directly into our lap. Calgary did not draft a decent top 6 center since Nieuwendyk, so who would have figured that all of a sudden not only would that change, but we would get two players that are looking like they will be perennial all stars.

Jankowski was looked at being a potential top 6 center at the time because we didn't have any in the system. Now there really isn't as much pressure to be "the guy" because we have two players that can easily be "the guy" instead. That allows him some wiggle room to find his niche. It may be possible that he pushes Bennett over to the wing on the second line because of his superior faceoff abilities. It might be that he becomes a good 3rd line shut down center like Jordan Staal was to the Penguins.

We won't know till after next year.

[JohnnySkittles]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I don't how some people still don't grasp this.
Nothing has changed.
When the Flames picked Janko they knew he would
- Not make the NHL for a number of years
- Go to University to play his hockey
- That there would likely be several guys selected before or even after him that made the NHL before he did

So to say that it was a 'bad decision' when nothing except what EVERYONE KNEW WOULD HAPPEN has happened - is just a really poor way to assess this.

The only way you could call this a bad decision right now is if Janko wasn't a legit prospect still. He is. So you can't.

I know all that, I'm well aware that he was a long term project, going to University, etc.

My point is that with the talent on the board at 14 it was stupid to trade down for a longshot high risk/high reward player.

I don't understand how people can't look and see what Girgensons, Ceci, Maatta, etc are doing at the NHL level and say ' yeah, it'd be nice to have that shutdown center' or ' yeah, it'd be nice to have that stud defender to go along with Brodie'

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Personally I find it far tougher to project U.S. college players than guys coming out of junior. It seems so much comes down to systems they play, the quality of the opponents, and who the player is paired with. Some I'm hesitant to draw too many conclusions, good or bad, from his play in Uni. I just don't know.

But to your question - they drafted a guy that maybe had a similar perceived floor as a guy like Girgensons but a higher ceiling - so you take a chance on that upside, particularly for a franchise, that at the time, needed to take a couple of home run swings.

I don't think the floor was considered since he was going to be the next Niewendyk. Just my opinion but taking a home run swing was a poor decision for us at the time.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Please tell me how Girgensons was a guarantee to be what he is right now? If it was that simple, wouldn't teams already be drafting so-called "sure things"? He could've easily busted or toiled the minors like Sven did.

I just don't get it, why don't the nay-sayers let it play out? For all we know Janko might be a Patrice Bergeron or he could be a Rico Fata but only time will tell.

Yeah, I got a little ahead of myself with that statement and edited my post to this

This is where one can say, why didn't we just draft Girgensons who we wouldn't have had to wait for and at the time was more of a sure thing?

I'd like to add that Girgensons was just one of the options in the draft that turned out to be a pretty good draft, despite Weisbrod's opinion of it.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I don't think the floor was considered since he was going to be the next Niewendyk. Just my opinion but taking a home run swing was a poor decision for us at the time.

I would think the floor is always considered. And I doubt the team actually thought they had the next Nieuwy - a HHOFer with multiple cups on his resume. Any team making that type of projection for a guy drafted in that position - are fools. I know they made the comments about him being the best player in the draft and what not - so it is partly on them. But I can't imagine they based their decision on getting the next Nieuwy for sure.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkittles

I know all that, I'm well aware that he was a long term project, going to University, etc.

My point is that with the talent on the board at 14 it was stupid to trade down for a longshot high risk/high reward player.

I don't understand how people can't look and see what Girgensons, Ceci, Maatta, etc are doing at the NHL level and say ' yeah, it'd be nice to have that shutdown center' or ' yeah, it'd be nice to have that stud defender to go along with Brodie'

Because we haven't seen what Janko can do at the NHL level yet.

[JohnnySkittles]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Because we haven't seen what Janko can do at the NHL level yet.

I'm aware of that and it's not what I'm debating about.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkittles

I know all that, I'm well aware that he was a long term project, going to University, etc.

My point is that with the talent on the board at 14 it was stupid to trade down for a longshot high risk/high reward player.

I don't understand how people can't look and see what Girgensons, Ceci, Maatta, etc are doing at the NHL level and say ' yeah, it'd be nice to have that shutdown center' or ' yeah, it'd be nice to have that stud defender to go along with Brodie'

Girgensons - he had 3 more points than Mikael Backlund who missed 1/3 of the year. Not exactly awesome. We were never as bad as the Sabres, so he might not have reached the NHL yet with Calgary, and if he did, he would likely be occupying the space of Markus Granlund.

Ceci - He is a decent defenseman. Calgary could have used a player like this. At the time though, we had a few decent D-men in the system, but no centers other than Greg Nemisz.

Tom Wilson - 3rd/4th line grinder. I'd easily take the risk on Janko's upside than go with Wilson.

Tomas Hertl - Good left winger with size. Kind of fizzled a bit this year, but he may rebound. Problem is that at the time LW was the deepest area for the Flames by a mile and still is.

Teuvo Teravainen - Good shifty small player. Would have been a decent pick except we already had a good shifty small player already in the system and having two would have been a poor decision (as we saw against Anaheim, we need to get bigger with skill than smaller with skill)

Andrei Vasilevski - Great young goalie. However, after getting burned a few times in the first round, it made sense to wait. This year was deep in goalies and the Flames snagged Gillies in the 3rd round as the 7th goalie picked.

Scott Laughton - Solid 3rd line player in the making, Jankowski has more offensive upside though.

Olli Maatta - Same with Ceci, good player although I think he's a little overrated personally because he makes some really bad decisions defensively at times. We had a few potential D-men and no Centers

Jankowski - He is looking like at worst he will be a solid 3rd line center, Backlund with size and faceoff abilities. That is good. However, he shows flashes of higher end skill that show if he was with some better players that he may be able to be something more.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkittles

I'm aware of that and it's not what I'm debating about.

But that's the answer to your question

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I would think the floor is always considered. And I doubt the team actually thought they had the next Nieuwy - a HHOFer with multiple cups on his resume. Any team making that type of projection for a guy drafted in that position - are fools. I know they made the comments about him being the best player in the draft and what not - so it is partly on them. But I can't imagine they based their decision on getting the next Nieuwy for sure.

It seems Weisbrod did.

"He's still got to cross the crocodile-infested waters to be a player," Weisbrod said. "But the physical attributes that this guy has, from the athleticism, skating, hands and the fact he'll likely be playing at 6-foot-4, 215 pounds. Like I've been saying to our scouts all week long, 'He's Joe Nieuwendyk.' I don't want to share anyone's business but he wouldn't have made it through today. There were at least two teams that would have taken him in the first round after us."

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/bu...052648549.html

[JohnnySkittles]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

But that's the answer to your question

I didn't ask a question though