[News] With the 21st overall pick Flames select C Mark Jankowski

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by New Era

See, there is the biggest problem in this thread. Teravainen is NOT starring in the finals. He has been almost invisible the entire playoffs, while playing with damn good talent. He scores a seeing eye shot from a bad shooting lane, and gets a phantom assist on the give away, and all of a sudden he's a star player responsible for carrying the Hawks to the finals. That last statement is not hyperbole either. When someone has the balls to say that player X is the star of the team that means they are the guy carrying the club on his back. Teravainen has barely been able to carry his own jock since coming to North America, but now he's a star. His contribution has been grossly overblown. He was expected to be a scorer and he isn't doing any of that. Not at the AHL level, and not at the NHL level. A long range shot the goaltender has yet to see, thanks to the hard work in the dirty areas by his line mates, doesn't impress.

On the other side of the discussion you have a guy whose contribution is being measured by his point production, when he is cast in a role where he is not expected to score. Jankowski does everything that his coaches ask him to do and is successful at it. The guy makes the tournament all star team after being the go-to defensive guy who just happened to score some really big goals along the way. Character guy with a lot of good things working in his advantage, including skill and size, a combination this team has been lacking for a long time.

The most important thing to realize is the draft is not about selecting the guy that gets to the NHL the fastest, it's selecting the guy that will contribute the most to your team and have the longest career. I think the Flames have drafted a kid that will provide a great return for the team in the long run. I support them for their decision to skip Tervainen as he reminds me way too much of the player they drafted the year before, and have just moved on from.

TT was a major part of 2 massive goals last night. He was a major reason they won a game that many thought they were going to lose. In a 7 game series and starting on the road that is a HUGE win for the Hawks. TT was a big part of that. If it was all he did for the rest of the series it would still be a big contribution. He has 8pts in 13 games though. He has been quite effective for them. In comparison Bennett had 4pts in 11 games and we were all going nuts. If TT was wearing a Flames jersey I hardly doubt you would be calling him "invisible", "can barely carry his jock strap", "contributions grosely overblown". We'd all be saying wow I think we might have a player here.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

Are any of you guys seriously trying to tell me you wouldn't trade Jankowski and Seiloff for Teravainen tomorrow?
I am very sure the Hawks would laugh in our faces.

You can play this same game with about 100 picks every NHL draft, and probably with 15 first rounders.

And I most certainly would not make that trade.

I would take Maata though, based on organizational need.

[GranteedEV]

And would he be a first star for the Calgary Flames in the SCF?

Probably not, because

1) Calgary's not in the Final
2) There's no telling if he even makes Hartley's roster over Bouma, Ferland, Granlund, Jooris, or Shore. Or Bollig.
3) We don't have Duncan Kieth to be a possession monster and get him the puck
4) We don't have big-name veterans like Sharp and Vermette on our third line.
5) Our top 2 lines don't have real superstars like Hossa, Kane, Toews, Saad, eating up all the real defensive attention on other lines.
6) Calgary's not in the Final.

[Red Menace]

Who said he would take us to the SCF?
He would be another great young asset.
One of those elusive potential top 6 wingers we are lacking in the organization.

[theg69]

I certainly understand why people are frustrated when they see the impact Maata and Teravainen has on their team (and how they would've looked in Flames silks).

That being said -> 1) It is still too early to completely label Jankowski as a bust yet.
2) That management team is no longer with us.
3) That management team should've earned at least some leeway with how they drafted the year before - they got a 4th rounder that would have gone in the 1st round if there was a re-draft (Johnny).

[GioforPM]

I don't like playing the "what if we should have picked X" game. I do think a lot of posters are fascinated with slick junior/college/Euro league playmaking skills to the point where they ignore other facets of the game, like speed, size, defensive play and most of all hockey IQ.

I don't think the Hawks would trade TT for Janko and Seiloff. But so what? You can think the Jankowski pick was a mistake, but who cares? The GM in charge is gone, the staff who made the pick have made several other stellar selections.

At the end of the day, Jankowski is here, as is Gillies from the same draft, and both are decent prospects. If Jankowski never makes it, that's how it goes sometimes. If he becomes a star, great. If he becomes a 3rd line centre he is a benefit to the team.

[Hackey]

I agree the pick is made and the management is gone so we need to move on but at the same time don't try to downplay the player and their accomplishments. You sound like a poor loser and it's pretty hypocritical.

[Red Menace]

I love the arguments that we need time to make these evaluations, then ask why we are talking about a draft from 3 years ago.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

I love the arguments that we need time to make these evaluations, then ask why we are talking about a draft from 3 years ago.

General rule of thumb is you don't start to truly evaluate a draft until 5 years out, especially outside of the top handful of pick.

I do agree with Hackey we shouldn't downplay the player the Penguins or Hawks got, maybe they end up being the better player(s) but that doesn't mean we won't get a good player either.

I was all in for Maatta going into the 2012 draft, love Finnish blueliners. But we don't have him, didn't draft him, focus on what we have. Hope he gets back to full health.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

Are any of you guys seriously trying to tell me you wouldn't trade Jankowski and Seiloff for Teravainen tomorrow?
I am very sure the Hawks would laugh in our faces.

I would trade Jankowski and Sieloff not only for TT straight up, but also for Girgensons, Cecil, Wilson, Vasilevski, or Laughton. So every single player they passed up. So that hurts


I think you would have to be a fool not to at this point (not that any of the other GMs would ever consider these trades). And I like Jankowski as a prospect

[Vinny01]

Who cares about TT? The guy we missed in was Maata or if we kept the pick Ceci or Girgensons. It does suck that Seiloff is not looking very good right now. The whole 2012 draft situation looks bad in hindsight.

Feaster traded our 2012 2nd to dump Kotalik who Buffalo buried in Europe anyway (gave the flames the space to take a run at Richards which would have been a disastrous signing) Feaster claimed the second kept Byron in the deal who is a player the organization waived multiple times in the past and turned out to be a fringe NHL player.

Trading down in 2012 was okay because we still could have taken Maata and got the other second. The Flamea also could have drafted big body C Girgensons or NHL Dman Ceci slid they kept their pick and likely could have snagged Jankowski with their second.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

Who said he would take us to the SCF?

Then he wouldn't be getting 1st star in the SCF.

He would be another great young asset.
One of those elusive potential top 6 wingers we are lacking in the organization.

...And what exactly does Teravainen do to put himself over:


(Baertschi RIP)
Jooris
Poirier
Klimchuk
Granlund
Shore
Ferland

On our winger prospect depth chart? He's maybe more skilled than Agostino, but also doesn't bring the all-around elements to the game. The only bonafide winger prospects I see Teravainen clearly ahead of is Turner Elson...and I really like Turner Elson.

He's a 5'10 skilled winger who put up .64 PPG in the AHL. Yet he's automatically a bajillion times better a prospect than 6'4/200+lb Jankowski, who ""only"" put up .73 PPG in the NCAA which are clear bust numbers. Even though NHL equivalency for those two leagues is very close (AHL = .44, NCAA = .41) and Jankowski's size translates better to the NHL game. Players like Teravainen are a dime a dozen even though they're valuable to have. Look at any team and they've got at least someone like him on their roster. Oilers with Yakupov. Vancouver with Shinkaruk/Baertschi. Leafs with Nylander. Flames with Klimchuk/(Baertschi)/Granlund. Red Wings with Pulkkinen (and before him Tatar, Nyquist). Jets with Petan. These are good smaller players, but they're not game breakers like Kane/Gaudreau. Yes there's top line upside there, as in Jiri Hudler upside. But even Jiri Hudler would tell you he'd be better off on a 2nd line.

That doesn't mean he wouldn't be nice to have in our prospect chart. But there's nothing suggesting he even makes the Flames roster. He's not Gaudreau here where teams are salivating over him. He's a 3rd liner on a good team. Which is a good accomplishment at age 20, but you can look back at many SCF teams, and find similar players. He's not the invaluable elusive Top 6 winger we're looking for.

As for taking longer, guess what: Filip Forsberg from the same draft took much longer than Nail Yakupov from the same draft to make the NHL. In Year 1 (2013), The Oilers are laughing at the idea of trading Yak for Forsberg. In Year 2 (2013-14) The Oilers see Forsberg being already traded for spare parts and are still not sold on trading Yak for Forsberg. After Year 3 (2014-15) The Oilers WISH they had selected the bigger skilled player who took longer to develop and is now tearing up the league instead of the smaller NHL-ready 3rd liner.

Do the Blackhawks trade Teravainen for Jankowski and Sieloff? Who knows. Centers are very valuable, and they just lost one to free agency last year and Vermette is a UFA too. Then again, I bet they would rather have 2010 First Rounder Kevin Hayes over 2012 first rounder Teravainen.

All I know is, Teravainen hasn't proven he's a top 6 winger. He's not even playing Top 6 wing right now.

[Red Menace]

you don't think TT is above those guys?
are you delusional?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

you don't think TT is above those guys?
are you delusional?

That's the spirit.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Who cares about TT? The guy we missed in was Maata or if we kept the pick Ceci or Girgensons. It does suck that Seiloff is not looking very good right now. The whole 2012 draft situation looks bad in hindsight.

Feaster traded our 2012 2nd to dump Kotalik who Buffalo buried in Europe anyway (gave the flames the space to take a run at Richards which would have been a disastrous signing) Feaster claimed the second kept Byron in the deal who is a player the organization waived multiple times in the past and turned out to be a fringe NHL player.

Trading down in 2012 was okay because we still could have taken Maata and got the other second. The Flamea also could have drafted big body C Girgensons or NHL Dman Ceci slid they kept their pick and likely could have snagged Jankowski with their second.

It's things like this that make me shake my head when all this recent Feaster love popped up during this season. If that man had been able to actually execute his vision, this team would be such a disaster right now that it wouldn't even be funny. We're are so fortunate that he couldn't implement the things he wanted to.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

you don't think TT is above those guys?
are you delusional?

What about his game separates him from our "scratch-or-play" pack in Calgary?

Draft position? Because Baertschi's draft position didn't help him make our team.

Scoring? Because Granlund's AHL scoring was better, and I'm pretty sure Shore, Poirier, Baertschi, and even Agostino finished the season with better/comparable PPG paces too and in some cases it didn't even get them the call up. Teravainen's NHL scoring prior to the playoffs isn't exactly something that makes you go "I need that player".

Tenacity/Defense? Because Ferland and Jooris are still way ahead of him and bring size and aren't exactly devoid of skill. (heck Jooris @ .4 PPG is still ahead of Teravainen's accumulated career including his hot playoffs)

Youth? Because that hasn't helped Poirier or Klimchuk make our team.

Shot? Because Klimchuk and Granlund are total snipers.

All-around package? Okay, explain it to me then. I'm all ears.

I'm not knocking Teravainen. He's a solid player and he'll probably have a good NHL career. But he's a small skilled winger who up until five games ago (I.E. a point the Flames never would have reached) had twelve career NHL points.

Who's delusional, the guy who sees Teravainen and sees a currently good bottom 6 player who would be lost among other good bottom 6 players. Or the guy who sees Teravainen playing on a bottom 6 role and sees a sure-fire Top 6 superstar?

Originally Posted by Vinny01

likely could have snagged Jankowski with their second.

Can people please drop this argument? There were 20 picks between 21 and 42. If the Flames intel believed Jankowski wouldn't be taken between 14 and 21 but would have been taken between 21 and 42 why are you so much smarter than them? They have scouts that go out there and see other scouts. They thought Jersey at 29 was going to take Jankowski and that wasn't the only other team interested. They have guys working 350+ days a year to prepare for the draft, while you might have read Central Scouting's list and then decided who you liked based off a Youtube video. Skilled projects like Jankowski are taken in the 20s all the time. By good drafting teams too, like Detroit with Sheahan and Chicago with Hayes.

[mile]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

you don't think TT is above those guys?
are you delusional?

I like TT, he's been impressive for sure and I definitely think he's going to be a player. I don't know if he is going to be a star though, and I'm not sure why you think it's a foregone conclusion that he will end up being the better player than all of the players listed above (Poirier and Ferland in particular are VERY debatable) - especially considering how we have a lot of small skilled forwards already.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I agree the pick is made and the management is gone so we need to move on but at the same time don't try to downplay the player and their accomplishments. You sound like a poor loser and it's pretty hypocritical.

Was that directed at me? because I don't think I downplayed Jankowski at all. Or Teravainen for that matter.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Can people please drop this argument? There were 20 picks between 21 and 42. If the Flames intel believed Jankowski wouldn't be taken between 14 and 21 but would have been taken between 21 and 42 why are you so much smarter than them? They have scouts that go out there and see other scouts. They thought Jersey at 29 was going to take Jankowski and that wasn't the only other team interested. They have guys working 350+ days a year to prepare for the draft, while you might have read Central Scouting's list and then decided who you liked based off a Youtube video. Players like Jankowski are taken in the 20s all the time. By good drafting teams too, like Detroit with Sheahan and Chicago with Hayes.

the way Featser and Weisbroad sold the pick to the media and the fans was they were smarter than everyone by picking a kid out of Canadian high school with their first round pick. Classic Feaster speak followed saying that other teams were ready to draft him in the first round.

All accounts this was Weisbroad who got all excited about him and really drove this selection home to the scouts. He was a terrible AGM and Feaster also admitted this pick was all Weisbroad.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Was that directed at me? because I don't think I downplayed Jankowski at all. Or Teravainen for that matter.

The agreeing part was directed at you. The downplaying was directed at posters who are trying to discredit TT. Guess it wasn't totally clear lol.