No. The only season they were in the top 10 percentage-wise was 06-07, which makes sense. But since that season, right up to a couple of years ago, TB was consistently in the bottom third of league attendance according to the report (according to % of seats filled). Still a healthy attendance record for the most part but definitely not top 10.
Percentage wise is a stupid way to look at it?
So if someone played in a 40,000 seat arena and managed to fill 20,000 seats, in your eyes they have worse attendance than someone who fills a 19,000 seat arena?
The ticket price thing is valid but it shows that there is at least interest in the team. The market might just not be able to support higher prices.
I thought I read somewhere, the Panthers stopped giving away tickets. It isn't going over very well with the fans that pay for season tickets, then have the guy next to them walk in for free. Diluted their own market.
Yes, they recently stopped the giveaways. Smart move in the long-term. But I'm pretty sure we'll see a drop in official attendance at Panthers games.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
No. The only season they were in the top 10 percentage-wise was 06-07, which makes sense. But since that season, right up to a couple of years ago, TB was consistently in the bottom third of league attendance according to the report (according to % of seats filled). Still a healthy attendance record for the most part but definitely not top 10.
Tampa has one of the largest arenas in the league, going by percentage is dumb when they can be ranked lower than LA or Pittsburgh despite having more people physically in the building. If you look at the ESPN stats, Tampa has only had 4 years where they weren't in the 10 ten by actual fan numbers
And those were 4 consecutive years when they really sucked. As soon as they started being competitive again they went right back into the top 10. The only reason hockey elitist fans try to disparage them is because of their location, if you put that franchise in a northern state with the exact same attendance figures and financials I doubt anyone says a word
Tampa has one of the largest arenas in the league, going by percentage is dumb when they can be ranked lower than LA or Pittsburgh despite having more people physically in the building. If you look at the ESPN stats, Tampa has only had 4 years where they weren't in the 10 ten by actual fan numbers
I'm not disputing the actual numbers but from a business point of view (this thread IS about the viability of the NHL doing business in Las Vegas) if you are not using your facilities to as high of a percentage as possible then you are losing out on revenue. That is a fact. Which is why it's disingenuous to say "we had more people attend a game than team X (Edmonton, for example)" when you're not even filling your arena. A team that fills a smaller arena to 100% capacity is still a more successful franchise than one that has an enormous arena that can't fill it.
Or are you saying it's just a coincidence that Tampa Bay, Arizona, Florida, Carolina, who all have the worst percentages of attendance over the last ten years or so, are also the least profitable teams in the league (and have some of the lowest operating revenue)?
So if someone played in a 40,000 seat arena and managed to fill 20,000 seats, in your eyes they have worse attendance than someone who fills a 19,000 seat arena?
The ticket price thing is valid but it shows that there is at least interest in the team. The market might just not be able to support higher prices.
I agree with you in principal on this, % wise isn't really a good measure in general for the reason you pointed out. However, it's probably pretty applicable in the NHL because with the exception of Winnipeg, not really that big a difference in building sizes. Most are over 18K and under 20K. Again, I know there are some exceptions, most notably Winnipeg on the small side, but attendance % likely isn't painting a picture that is that far off reality for attendance in the NHL.
But as said before, attendance alone doesn't even come close to telling the story. Really, all you need to look at is revenue generated by the teams, that's your best high level metric on success of a market place. From there you can dive deeper on the different driver metrics to understand what's actually going on in each market good or bad, but people using Attendance as their first line metric to determine market health or viability are starting at the wrong spot IMO.
I also agree that attendance can guage the interest to some level. But it's all relative. The value of a market should be gauged on at what Price people would be willing to still come to games at. A market where you can't give away tickets for free and have people show up, likely the worst market on your scale. A market where you can charge premium prices like in Calgary and still sell out the building to 90% in a rebuild, likely a great market. A market like Toronto where you can have a perennial loser and still charge double the other good markets, likely means you could have another team serving that fan base because supply is way way under demand. And of course everything in between.
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Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
Couldn't you say the same thing about Phoenix? Millions of transplants from Canada and the Northeastern U.S. Lots of money. Same with Florida. There are Millions of Canadian snowbirds and retired Americans from the Northeast living or vacationing in the Florida every winter. Surely a franchise can't go wrong with that kind of support from people with a fondness for hockey already!
Those who move to Vegas from other spots are going there young and working.
Not a lot of "snowbirds" or Americans use LV as a destination for retirement.
Outside the strip and the glitz of LV is a thriving and bustling city who's demography is much more suited to using disposable income on sports.
Even if they aren't free, there is a lot of those ridiculous packages: $99 gets you 4 tickets, 4 pops, 4 hotdogs, parking & a souvenir.
That may as well be free considering 1 trip to a concession at any other NHL rink will cost you $20 at least, usually $50.
You mean like the Flames selling STHs in the 300s where you pay less than $25 per game for your seat and get a free hot dog and pop for every single game?
As to the season ticket question, I don't have a link, but a buddy of mine who blogs on the Lightning says they are in the range of 12,000. Probably a little below that.
As far as profitability, the Lightning have only ever turned a profit once: in 2003-04. They are likely to do so again this year. And while someone above correctly noted that you can't budget around making the Stanley Cup Finals every year, this is also true:
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But just because the Lightning has lost money doesn't necessarily mean that its owners have lost money. That's because whoever owns the Lightning also gets to run its home arena, which is one of the nation's must successful entertainment venues.
I hope we get a hockey team in Vegas. I think it's an experiment worth trying, and if it doesn't work out, there is a ready-made market in Quebec to move the team to.
Those who move to Vegas from other spots are going there young and working.
The Las Vegas unemployment rate is 7.0%, well above the national average of 5.5%. The growing population of Las Vegas isn't young either, with 46% of new residents being over the age of 45; 34% over 55. Of the people coming to Las Vegas only 35.4% have full time jobs and 32.5% are unemployed/looking for work.
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Not a lot of "snowbirds" or Americans use LV as a destination for retirement.
Not true at all. The US Census Bureau projected the fastest growing segment of Nevada's population over the next decade would be senior citizens. This has proven to be accurate based on local news reports and demographic information as snowbirds flock to Las Vegas, only falling behind Austin, Texas, as a destination. Las Vegas also has some of the premier retirement communities in the nation, like Sun City Summerlin, Sun City Anthem, Sun City MacDonald Ranch, Sun City Aliante, Siena, Solera at Anthem, Solera at Stallion Mountain, and Ardiente.
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Outside the strip and the glitz of LV is a thriving and bustling city who's demography is much more suited to using disposable income on sports.
Census statistics don't support this claim. Per capita income is $25,607, below the state average by almost a thousand dollars. Annual spending for a household sees 34.9% spent on housing, 16.5% spent on transportation, 12.9% spent on food, 17% spent on healthcare, insurance and pensions, and the remainder available for disposable income. That is around $10K for the average household. Not a ton to spend on sports tickets. It also doesn't help that Las Vegas is still suffering from the housing crisis and the values in homes is still low, not even worth 2/3 of the value they had in 2007, and with foreclosures still almost double the national average. Also the majority of jobs still remain in the Leisure and Hospitality industry, with Trade, Transportation and Utilities being a distant second. Professional and Business Services were third. Except for the entertainment and hospitality industries wages are below the national average.
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In news that is as shocking as the fact that water is wet, Bettman will present an update on Vegas to the BOG on June 24, and if the board is willing, will recommend the league begin a formal expansion process.
Census statistics don't support this claim. Per capita income is $25,607, below the state average by almost a thousand dollars. Annual spending for a household sees 34.9% spent on housing, 16.5% spent on transportation, 12.9% spent on food, 17% spent on healthcare, insurance and pensions, and the remainder available for disposable income. That is around $10K for the average household. Not a ton to spend on sports tickets. It also doesn't help that Las Vegas is still suffering from the housing crisis and the values in homes is still low, not even worth 2/3 of the value they had in 2007, and with foreclosures still almost double the national average. Also the majority of jobs still remain in the Leisure and Hospitality industry, with Trade, Transportation and Utilities being a distant second. Professional and Business Services were third. Except for the entertainment and hospitality industries wages are below the national average.
Keep in mind that there's a lot of money floating around in Vegas that's under the table. I think their per capita income is much higher than reported.
Of course Bettman is in town next week, the awards are being held there. But yeah, the league doesn't let a market hold a drive without being confident of a team going in.
I hope that when they expand they do a couple 1 off expansions like they did with the Sharks, Thrashers and Predators rather than forcing 2 new teams in at once like they did with Ottawa/Tampa, Anaheim/Florida and Minnesota/Columbus
Duha postulated on the radio that there is no reason the NHL could have more teams in the east and restructure the league to follow more of an NFL model. It was an interesting take but the NHL is not exactly lead by visionaries.
