Norris Trophy Finalists

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I love watching Karlsson. Such a unique player and incredibly valuable player that has no real comparable. He jumps up so much and is better in the offensive zone than the forwards. He's also better in the defensive zone than any other defenseman. The trouble is, you can't be in both places at once so he has to rely on the forwards to pick up the back check. He's gotta be the smoothest skater in the league too. Never looks like he's in trouble

I assume you mean on his team?

Also, Brodie is often the deepest guy in the offensive zone only to be present on the back check. He isn't as fast as Karlsson (though he's not far off) so it's more of a defensive IQ thing IMO.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I love watching Karlsson. Such a unique player and incredibly valuable player that has no real comparable. He jumps up so much and is better in the offensive zone than the forwards. He's also better in the defensive zone than any other defenseman. The trouble is, you can't be in both places at once so he has to rely on the forwards to pick up the back check. He's gotta be the smoothest skater in the league too. Never looks like he's in trouble

He's kind of a flawed imitation of Duncan Keith. When I have watched the Sentators he's looked horrendous in his own zone as he probably could be a better rounded defenseman if he wasn't such a one way player. Keith could get more points if he played the way Karlsson plays but Keith knows how you have to play to win.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He's kind of a flawed imitation of Duncan Keith. When I have watched the Sentators he's looked horrendous in his own zone as he probably could be a better rounded defenseman if he wasn't such a one way player. Keith could get more points if he played the way Karlsson plays but Keith knows how you have to play to win.

Not trying to be rude, but I don't know how you consider Keith and Karlsson to even be vaguely similar to each other. They seem to be very, very different players to me.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Not trying to be rude, but I don't know how you consider Keith and Karlsson to even be vaguely similar to each other. They seem to be very, very different players to me.

I see Karlsson more like Dan Boyle when he was with the Lightning. And of the same generation, he's a more extreme Letang.

[RyZ]

I'll take the only real Dman on the board.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Offense is now driven from the defensive position, and Karlsson drives play like no other D in the league.

Define "driving play"

Karlsson is probably the best players in the league at getting the puck through to the net bar none. But he doesn't drive play nearly as much as the top class i.e. Doughty, Giordano, Kieth, Subban, Brodie, Letang, Vlasic, and Hedman. That's something watching them shows, but also the "advanced stats" support that.

That doesn't mean Karlsson is poor at driving play, he's just in that "second tier" of play drivers, like McDonagh, Trouba, Josi, Pietrangelo. Which when added to his offensive skill is still a deadly combination.

[codynw]

Why are people still acting like Subban is some awful one dimensional player? What year are we in?

He makes mistakes once in a while like literally every other offensively minded defenceman, but he's improved so much over the last year or two.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by codynw

Why are people still acting like Subban is some awful one dimensional player? What year are we in?

He makes mistakes once in a while like literally every other offensively minded defenceman, but he's improved so much over the last year or two.

Give him this:

[cannon7]

I went with Karlsson because:

a) Doughty didn't make the playoffs.
b) Subban is only here because of media bias.
c) There are no viable candidates left.

I wouldn't have nominated any of these three.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by cannon7

I went with Karlsson because:

a) Doughty didn't make the playoffs.
b) Subban is only here because of media bias.
c) There are no viable candidates left.

I wouldn't have nominated any of these three.

When did they change the Norris trophy to "defenceman who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position who's team made the playoffs"?

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by codynw

When did they change the Norris trophy to "defenceman who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position who's team made the playoffs"?

At the same point they changed it to "You don't actually have to play high level defence to win the Dman of the year award".

[Dion]

Originally Posted by RyZ

At the same point they changed it to "You don't actually have to play high level defence to win the Dman of the year award".

They should just rename it the Bobby Orr trophy as it seems point totals appear to be more important than the defensive side of the game.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Define "driving play"

Karlsson is probably the best players in the league at getting the puck through to the net bar none. But he doesn't drive play nearly as much as the top class i.e. Doughty, Giordano, Kieth, Subban, Brodie, Letang, Vlasic, and Hedman. That's something watching them shows, but also the "advanced stats" support that.

That doesn't mean Karlsson is poor at driving play, he's just in that "second tier" of play drivers, like McDonagh, Trouba, Josi, Pietrangelo. Which when added to his offensive skill is still a deadly combination.

Yes - what you are talking about is what I meant by driving play.
Imo Karlsson was definitely a cut above Doughty, Keith, Vlasic and Brodie this year - but I'm only talking visually. I do expect CF%REL would show this as well though. I mentioned Gio as being equal - and maybe he is in fact better. I did say he would have won Norris if not for injuries. I never saw Letang and can't comment.
I love PK, so maybe I was trying not to let my bias influence and put him behind Karlsson when he should be ahead. Regardless, I put those 3 easily at the top of the class in driving play.

[FireGilbert]

I haven't voted yet and don't like any of the nominees. Well they are fine as nominees but I don't want any of them to win. Too bad Gio got hurt, without him the Norris race became wide open. I don't think he played quite enough games to win though so I'm going with Wideman as my write in vote.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by codynw

When did they change the Norris trophy to "defenceman who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position who's team made the playoffs"?

In my opinion, if you're a #1 d-man and your play is exemplary then that should be a significant contributing factor in making the playoffs. I would've voted for Doughty in previous years, but this season he and the Kings looked like mere mortals. What other #1 d-man deserving of a Norris nomination was on a non-playoff team?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by cannon7

In my opinion, if you're a #1 d-man and your play is exemplary then that should be a significant contributing factor in making the playoffs. I would've voted for Doughty in previous years, but this season he and the Kings looked like mere mortals. What other #1 d-man deserving of a Norris nomination was on a non-playoff team?

I think helping your team to the POs is a factor but only one of many. If the Flames fell one game short and Gio had played the whole season at the same pace as he did, I'd be POed if he wasn't right up there.

[Machiavelli]

Doughty didn't have a great year; he should not win this trophy.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Dion

They should just rename it the Bobby Orr trophy as it seems point totals appear to be more important than the defensive side of the game.

Orr was actually a really good defensive player. Not bonecrushing or anything, but he played the PK all the time and was terrific at takeaways. And while =/- is an incredibly flawed stat, he is plus 80 per 80 games played. The next closest guy is Lapperiere at 44.3/80 games and then Robinson at 41.9/80). You don't get that high without a decent 2-way game. And in at least one coaches poll in those days he was voted best defensive d-man (tied with Arbour and another guy).

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Doughty is easily the best overall defenseman of the group but his team did miss the playoffs but that shouldn't take away from the fact that he had a great season.

He wasn't that good.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

He wasn't that good.

29 minutes per game average on the season people. He played half of every single game on average. He carried that team on a lot of nights and down the stretch he was one of the few guys that was noticeable. Stats-wise not his best season but on a lot of nights he was the only player that was flying and considering how much he was playing it was remarkable. Of the three he's the only complete defenseman and without him this year the Kings are picking top 5.