"Patience"... What are we waiting for?

[polak]

So it's the end of a fantastic season and as expected, there are a lot of people who seem to have the idea that we should be patient and not expect dramatic changes or set too high of expectations for this team just yet. This is a completely level headed and commendable attitude and it's definitely one that I hope management shares to some extent but I have one question...

What are we waiting for?

We all know this was only year two of the rebuild and that a rebuild takes time, however, I think we might be forgetting the strategy that comes with a rebuild. You trade your older players with value in order to build a strong cupboard of picks and prospects thus increasing your chances of building a strong team in the future and also lowering your position in the standings to draft higher. Do you still think that’s what the Flames are doing or should be doing?

This team is most likely not going to be drafting in the top 5 any time soon. Even if we regress, we’d have to completely fall of the map for a high caliber pick. Unlikely.

The only veteran players we have with any value are key pieces of the team in areas where our prospect quality isn’t just “light” but down right non-existent. We don’t have anyone remotely close to being able to step up and be a reliable replacement for Wideman. There are very few prospects in the entire league that have the ceiling of 2015 Jiri Hudler, let alone any in the Flames system currently displaying that level of promise. The rest? They may indeed garner some low end picks but the ones that will get you anything worth your while might just be more valuable to us than what they’d return. Look at someone like Backlund. He might be a valuable trading piece in a bigger deal, but alone? It’s doubtful that he gets you anything better than a 2nd, probably lands you a 3rd. He’s only 25 and we know he could be the reliable defensive 3C on the team going forward. Do you risk that for a 2nd or 3rd rounder? I don’t know.

The reality is, our blue chips have all graduated to the big leagues. The core we all dreamed about last summer, the one that was supposed to help us make the playoffs in 2016-2017, well, they have mostly arrived. We don’t have many prospects that are sure-fire NHL’ers left to come fill in these gaps that we would theoretically be making room for if we were still trading away our “post-apex” players.

So we have probably moved passed the traditional early rebuild stage. Suck it, Oilers.

Do you leave the team alone to fight on the bubble again? That’s an option, I guess? But somewhat of a fruitless one. We would be sacrificing a year of Gaudreau, Monahan and Bennett on the cheap for another early exit or possibly picking one or two spots higher if we miss. Doesn’t seem worth it since we don’t really gain anything from that scenario. Remember, most of our blue chips are already here. We’re not really waiting for much down on the farm.

So to me, when I hear “be patient”, I understand and I agree but only in terms of not shedding picks or going all in just yet.

We need to be making the appropriate changes despite the fact that it might cost us some younger players. We're sitting pretty in goal and we still have some decent forwards to look forward to on the farm, but we have zero high end D. That’s a hole that we need to fill and we have the cap space and depth up front to do it. Okay, that one was easy but what about our Top 6? Porier could be the answer and Klimchuk could eventually step up too but are we sure we shouldn’t package up one of them for a young-ish Top 6 player now? That one isn’t so straight forward as it flies in the face of a “rebuild” but that doesn’t make it a bad choice.

(TL;DR)

What I’m getting at with this long winded post is that while patience and staying grounded is important, we also have to realize that most of what we’re waiting for is already here. There’s not much point in sitting pretty and letting time go by. Last summer, we were hopeful that in 2016-2017 we might be a playoff team. So answer me this, what would have been the plan in the offseason in 2017? What are we waiting for?

[Azhouse]

Everyone is still bruised by the past and the long term crappy contracts to vets that were non-factors (Jokinen, Bouw (Iginla, Tanguay near the end??), and going back in the Sutter era - Friesen, Amonte). Getting into a bidding war on July 1 is not the answer. Youngish players with upside is what I want to see. I want the dressing room chemistry to progress and do want to see a re-creation of the jaded country club of days gone by.

[blankall]

I'd like us to pick up a big bruising top 4 defenceman and a second line physical winger. Both should be either free agent acquisitions or cost little in the way of futures. The big mistake would be to send off a major futures asset based on one good season of play.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Azhouse

Everyone is still bruised by the past and the long term crappy contracts to vets that were non-factors (Jokinen, Bouw (Iginla, Tanguay near the end??), and going back in the Sutter era - Friesen, Amonte). Getting into a bidding war on July 1 is not the answer. Youngish players with upside is what I want to see. I want the dressing room chemistry to progress and do want to see a re-creation of the jaded country club of days gone by.

This is an understandable mentality. The downside to this is that we don't end up giving our strong pieces the support they need. It was fairly clear in the Anaheim series that the Flames need to be tougher to play against.

The difference between what we need now and what happened in 2009-2014 was that we were attempting to fill first line offensive roles with free agents and ended up with support pieces. Now we have the big first line guys and just need the support pieces.

[GranteedEV]

A big 2015 free agent signing would not be the best move (though Sekera would be notable as it kills the Kings bird with the same stone, or Petry if the price is right) because we need to figure out the cap situation in 2016 with Monahan, Hudler, Gaudreau, Giordano, Russell. The 2017 offseason is going to be the year we should splurge and hopefully by then more of our prospects like Poirier, Hickey, Jankowski, Ortio are making an argument as legit top 6 / top 4 / 1A guys that makes us deep enough to content.

We're simply not just a piece or two away as-is.

[Vinny01]

Duhatchek mentioned the Flames were extremely close to landing Tyler Myers this season and he would have been an absolute perfect fit for our team. If they could have added him and a forward like Lucic we would be laughing

[dustyanddaflames]

I think the lines between "staying the course" and "pushing ahead on our timeline" are too similar to distinguish if a transaction is one or another. I think transactions fans are going to support could be viewed either way. Signing FA's this off-season or trades that fit the mold of this group, are both staying the course and pushing ahead our timeline. I think in a perfect world, moves we see to bolster the club will fall under both categories. Treliving should be looking at all avenues to better this club, in the short and long term.

[EldrickOnIce]

What was clear from the Anaheim series is that the Flames are a long way from being an actual contender.
The young core gained valuable experience but the needs are apparent. Treviling has shown he understands this. I don't know if there are enough important additions that can be made via trade and free agency.
I think 2017-18 is the prime time, and therefore patience is required.

[CliffFletcher]

Patience means not freaking out and making short-term moves if he team isn't in a playoff position next Christmas.

[troutman]

Seems to me we have 10 threads on the first page about the same general topic.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Duhatchek mentioned the Flames were extremely close to landing Tyler Myers this season and he would have been an absolute perfect fit for our team. If they could have added him and a forward like Lucic we would be laughing

Unless they could acquire 2012 Lucic, I have no interest.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

What was clear from the Anaheim series is that the Flames are a long way from being an actual contender.
The young core gained valuable experience but the needs are apparent. Treviling has shown he understands this. I don't know if there are enough important additions that can be made via trade and free agency.
I think 2017-18 is the prime time, and therefore patience is required.

I agree that the 2017-2018 season should be when the team starts to hit its prime, but by then, everyone who is older than Russell should be in sharp decline. I hope the Flames can somehow establish a new D-core by then.

[Enoch Root]

Patience doesn't mean ignore the present.

It means understanding that the young guys like Monahan, Gaudreau and Bennett aren't ready yet; we need more depth and size; the defense corps is too thin; and our goaltending is average.

While there's a great deal to be excited about with this team, there are still a lot of holes and a lot of key players are still learning.

Patience means keep building for the future, don't start trying to spend future assets to try to win now.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Do not let making the playoffs fool you. We are still rebuilding.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Patience doesn't mean ignore the present.

It means understanding that the young guys like Monahan, Gaudreau and Bennett aren't ready yet; we need more depth and size; the defense corps is too thin; and our goaltending is average.

While there's a great deal to be excited about with this team, there are still a lot of holes and a lot of key players are still learning.

Patience means keep building for the future, don't start trying to spend future assets to try to win now.

But how do you build for the future now that we are a bubble team?

We won't get those high, sure-fire picks and any vets we unload will either not get us anything or substantially downgrade the team to the point where it may send the wrong message to the young guys (i.e. trading Wideman or Hudler).

That's why I made this thread. What should we do? "Stay the course" and wait for what??

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by polak

But how do you build for the future now that we are a bubble team?

We won't get those high, sure-fire picks and any vets we unload will either not get us anything or substantially downgrade the team to the point where it may send the wrong message to the young guys (i.e. trading Wideman or Hudler).

That's why I made this thread. What should we do? "Stay the course" and wait for what??

You don't have to pick top 5 to get better.

This draft will be a good example of that - even though we made the playoffs, we will get better from this draft.

And we should continue to be sellers for the next 2 or 3 years, meaning we will continue to acquire assets.

THEN, when you are loaded with assets and key guys entering their prime, THEN you start trading for vets and key additions (like Anaheim did with Kesler)

[blankall]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

What was clear from the Anaheim series is that the Flames are a long way from being an actual contender.
The young core gained valuable experience but the needs are apparent. Treviling has shown he understands this. I don't know if there are enough important additions that can be made via trade and free agency.
I think 2017-18 is the prime time, and therefore patience is required.

You have to take advantage of opportunities that present themselves. If that perfect top 4 shut down d-man becomes available, and it doesn't involve mortgaging the future, you jump all over it.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You don't have to pick top 5 to get better.

This draft will be a good example of that - even though we made the playoffs, we will get better from this draft.

And we should continue to be sellers for the next 2 or 3 years, meaning we will continue to acquire assets.

THEN, when you are loaded with assets and key guys entering their prime, THEN you start trading for vets and key additions (like Anaheim did with Kesler)

What do we have left to sell? Giordano, Hudler, Wideman? I'd prefer to keep all 3. Beyond that we have guys like Stajan, Smid, Raymond, and Bollig. They will either get us little to no return, or in the case of Stajan are also worth keeping.

Our selling days are pretty much over. It's a bit of an empty lot now.

[heep223]

They were talking on the Fan this morning comparing the Flames to the Hawks team that lost in the 2nd round in 09 (or was it '10?). They then went out and picked up Hossa and another high profile free agent and won the cup.

It's not as cut and dry as people think, that we have to embark on some 5 year slow rebuild plan. Every team and every situation is different.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by polak

But how do you build for the future now that we are a bubble team

You give players in the system time, including those at the NHL level.
You try to acquire the right players through trade or free agency.
Is a guy like Petry that guy?
Are there cap situations the Flames could exploit?
Can they package and trade up to get the impact guy they want?
It just has to be done carefully. The Flames could throw millions at free agents, throw picks for players, and wind up throwing it away to win now.