[News] 2014/2015 Hart Finalists: Price, Ovechkin and Tavares

[SixtySix]

Originally Posted by RockOnRoberts

You guys know there is a difference between best and most valuable, right? You could be the best player on a team of all stars without being all that crucial to your team's success or you could be the difference that takes a crappy team beyond expectations. In Price's case, he is both the best and the most valuable.

Like I said, I get that it's supposed to go to the most valuable player. The point is it's uncommon for this to actually be the case. Which Hart winner in the past decade would you argue won solely based on their value to a team over their sheer on-ice performance? Do you think the reason that defencemen and goalies rarely ever capture hart trophies is because they are consistently not being valuable enough to their teams? And when has a D/G won the Hart but not the Norris/Vezina? I'd be shocked if it's happened in the past 30 years.

I'd say the Hart is a forward's award, or an upgraded version of the Norris or Vezina if the player has a truly dominant season and forces the voter's hands. It should just be a forward's award IMO.

[Poe969]

Not only does Price deserve the Hart and Vezina, I wouldn't be opposed to giving him the Norris over the guys who were nominated.

[habernac]

so forwards can get a number of trophies but goalies should be limited to one? BS. Price in a landslide.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

All eastern nominees. Probably justified for this award though.

It's gotta be Price

Benn would have been nominated if he were on a playoff team. Seguin may have been nominated were he not injured. Both had amazing years.

That being said, these are probably the right nominees.

[Red Menace]

I think they should have a most outstanding forward award, and then a second most outstanding player award for all positions.
And it shouldn't be "most valuable to their team", it should be most outstanding player.
Most valuable to team often excludes anyone who has great teammates.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Forwards already win the Selke, Rocket Richard and Art Ross. And they usually take home the Hart, too.

I don't have a problem with the setup of the trophies, it usually takes a pretty fantastic year for a goalie or d-man to win the Hart, like Price this year. I have no problem with it, if anything there's too many awards for forwards.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Giordano plays 62 games - not even a Norris candidate
Price plays 65 games - Hart and Vezina frontrunner

That comparison is disingenuous to the point of insulting everyone's intelligence.


Anyway, this should be Price's award. Frankly, I don't think the Habs even make the playoffs without him.

[codynw]

There was very little separation between the top forwards this year, and Price just had one of the best seasons any goalie has had in a long time. He should win this in a landslide.

[Jason14h]

Price had 1953 shot and let in 130 goals. His save % was amazing at .933

HOWEVER: If you were to replace Price with Hiller, who had a .918 %, he would have let in an additional 30 goals.

Montreal for the season was +32 in goals. So the change would put them at +2, in the territory of Boston Dallas and SJ (9-10th place in a conference)

Ovy scored 53 to Washingtons 242 goals, for 22%. It is hard to judge what an average replacement for him would be, but as I used Hiller and he was middle of the pack for goalies, I will choose the 135th best scorer in the NHL (9 forwards X 30 teams = 270 skaters excluding 4th line)

That is C. Hagelin who had 17 goals. So Ovy scored 36 more goals then a comparable average level replacement player

Washington scored + 39 goals this year, so the different would be +3. Right in the same range as Montreal without Price.

This obviously doesn't take into account many factors (How the team plays differently knowing Price is back there, Ovy's assists, how teams defend Wash, etc) but although Price has an amazing year, he was worth roughly the same net goals difference at Ovy.

My vote is always for the skater over the goalie

[Poe969]

It's mind bottling that some would give this to anyone other than Price.

[GoFlamesGo89]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Price had 1953 shot and let in 130 goals. His save % was amazing at .933

HOWEVER: If you were to replace Price with Hiller, who had a .918 %, he would have let in an additional 30 goals.

Montreal for the season was +32 in goals. So the change would put them at +2, in the territory of Boston Dallas and SJ (9-10th place in a conference)

Ovy scored 53 to Washingtons 242 goals, for 22%. It is hard to judge what an average replacement for him would be, but as I used Hiller and he was middle of the pack for goalies, I will choose the 135th best scorer in the NHL (9 forwards X 30 teams = 270 skaters excluding 4th line)

That is C. Hagelin who had 17 goals. So Ovy scored 36 more goals then a comparable average level replacement player

Washington scored + 39 goals this year, so the different would be +3. Right in the same range as Montreal without Price.

This obviously doesn't take into account many factors (How the team plays differently knowing Price is back there, Ovy's assists, how teams defend Wash, etc) but although Price has an amazing year, he was worth roughly the same net goals difference at Ovy.

My vote is always for the skater over the goalie

The problem with this analysis is that you're not accounting for another skater in place of Ovechkin who would have certainly contributed *some* goals to the team number. Even if its only 10-15, that still a huge vote in favor of Price. Not even a question.

[Jason14h]

The problem with this analysis is that you're not accounting for another skater in place of Ovechkin who would have certainly contributed *some* goals to the team number. Even if its only 10-15, that still a huge vote in favor of Price. Not even a question.

Ummm yes I am.....

That is C. Hagelin who had 17 goals. So Ovy scored 36 more goals then a comparable average level replacement player

[GoFlamesGo89]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Ummm yes I am.....

sorry, my mistake!

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Price had 1953 shot and let in 130 goals. His save % was amazing at .933

HOWEVER: If you were to replace Price with Hiller, who had a .918 %, he would have let in an additional 30 goals.

Montreal for the season was +32 in goals. So the change would put them at +2, in the territory of Boston Dallas and SJ (9-10th place in a conference)

Ovy scored 53 to Washingtons 242 goals, for 22%. It is hard to judge what an average replacement for him would be, but as I used Hiller and he was middle of the pack for goalies, I will choose the 135th best scorer in the NHL (9 forwards X 30 teams = 270 skaters excluding 4th line)

That is C. Hagelin who had 17 goals. So Ovy scored 36 more goals then a comparable average level replacement player

Washington scored + 39 goals this year, so the different would be +3. Right in the same range as Montreal without Price.

This obviously doesn't take into account many factors (How the team plays differently knowing Price is back there, Ovy's assists, how teams defend Wash, etc) but although Price has an amazing year, he was worth roughly the same net goals difference at Ovy.

My vote is always for the skater over the goalie

With your math, you're replacing statistically the best goalie in the world with the 16th best goalie.

You're replacing Ovechkin's goal totals with the 135th best goal scorer. I would argue, following your line of thinking, that if you're replacing an elite starting goalie with a statistically average starting goalie you should replace a top line winger with a statistically average top line winger. That's going to be closer to a 25 goal scorer, 60 point player (well until they explode with Backstrom as their center...). And following that simple math it's closer to 20 to 25 goals instead of 36.

Anyways, I think Price has this in the bag.

[CroFlames]

I think Price also has it in the bag, but I disagree with that and I think Ovi deserves it more. Again, 53 goals in a year when all scoring is down, and he's 20% ahead of his rival in goals. Pretty darn amazing.

As far as most valuable to his team, obviously the goalie is more valuable. The wing and goalie position is so different, it's awkward comparing the two. Dubnyk, Lundqvist, Rinne, Crawford, heck even Hiller are more valuable to his team. Without a great goalie, teams are simply not competitive. By that logic, I'd give the Hart every damn year to a goalie. But that's why having the Vezina makes sense. Award it to the best goalie, and the Hart to the best skater.

I hope that the writers take into account the fact that 53 goals is too big of an accomplishment to be overlooked in Hart voting, especially when perennial superstar Sid only had 84 points and he was fully healthy.

[codynw]

If they for some reason give it to a forward, Tavares deserves it more than Ovechkin.

Tavares has 35 more points than the second place scorer on his own team. That's ridiculous.

[Jason14h]

With your math, you're replacing statistically the best goalie in the world with the 16th best goalie.

There are 30 starting goalies. I replaced him with a middle of the pack goalie, just as I did with Ovy.

And a goalie who was a FA without a ton of suitors. Not like a start up and coming rookie.

and following that simple math it's closer to 20 to 25 goals instead of 36.

But a team can actually get a Hiller type goalie quiet easily. Goalies are a dime a dozen. A team can not replace Ovy with a 30 goals 60 pt first liner! They just are not available.

This is why I do not think a goalie should be the most valuable. It is 100X easier to find a starting star goalie then a star foward. Look at the goalie turnover.

So if my option is take Ovy and Hiller type or Price and random FA middle of pack forward I will take Ovy. I believe he is harder to replace and at worst just as valuable to his teams success

[Locke]

I'd like to see Tavares get it because hes about due for some recognition, but its going to be tough to pry this one out of Price's hands.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

There are 30 starting goalies. I replaced him with a middle of the pack goalie, just as I did with Ovy.

And a goalie who was a FA without a ton of suitors. Not like a start up and coming rookie.

But a team can actually get a Hiller type goalie quiet easily. Goalies are a dime a dozen. A team can not replace Ovy with a 30 goals 60 pt first liner! They just are not available.

This is why I do not think a goalie should be the most valuable. It is 100X easier to find a starting star goalie then a star foward. Look at the goalie turnover.

So if my option is take Ovy and Hiller type or Price and random FA middle of pack forward I will take Ovy. I believe he is harder to replace and at worst just as valuable to his teams success

Not to mention he had 11 GWGs. Pretty hard to argue against 22 team points coming directly from his stick.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I think Price also has it in the bag, but I disagree with that and I think Ovi deserves it more. Again, 53 goals in a year when all scoring is down, and he's 20% ahead of his rival in goals. Pretty darn amazing.

As far as most valuable to his team, obviously the goalie is more valuable. The wing and goalie position is so different, it's awkward comparing the two. Dubnyk, Lundqvist, Rinne, Crawford, heck even Hiller are more valuable to his team. Without a great goalie, teams are simply not competitive. By that logic, I'd give the Hart every damn year to a goalie. But that's why having the Vezina makes sense. Award it to the best goalie, and the Hart to the best skater.

I hope that the writers take into account the fact that 53 goals is too big of an accomplishment to be overlooked in Hart voting, especially when perennial superstar Sid only had 84 points and he was fully healthy.

Price was 1st in wins, goals against average, and save percentage. He won the triple crown for NHL goalies this season.

Not sure you can dismiss all that because another player scored a lot of goals.