Child detained at the Lego store in Chinook (11.5 without an adult)

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do stores have liability? Did they have liability 40 years ago? Has anything changed, legally?

Honest questions. I understand that social norms have changed (for the worse). But those who support the new norms often cite the law. Have laws changed? From my understanding, liability of the sort common in the U.S. does not apply in Canada. Our system is far less tolerant of personal litigation.

I honestly dont know if the laws have changed, but if some kid is just wandering around through the store and there were no liability on the store I dont see why they'd detain the kid rather than just ask him to leave.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do stores have liability? Did they have liability 40 years ago? Has anything changed, legally?

Yes of course they have a liability exposure and it is higher as they are attracting people to come into their store for purposes of business.

Honest questions. I understand that social norms have changed (for the worse). But those who support the new norms often cite the law. Have laws changed? From my understanding, liability of the sort common in the U.S. does not apply in Canada. Our system is far less tolerant of personal litigation.

Yeah I don't agree. Alberta is very litigious.

Also, it's dismaying how often kids are referred to as 'brats' in North America. People should get out and see a bit of the world. We live in an unusually child-unfriendly country. In most countries you see kids everywhere - stores, streets, buses, parks, restaurants - at all hours of the day and night. And most adults seem quite happy to have them around. They're not regarded as some troublesome annoyance best kept under close supervision and restricted to schools and private homes.

Do you really think Canada is "child-unfriendly"

I love having kids around, I love interacting with kids. It is one of the reasons I am involved with coaching kid's sport.

[Cuz]

Originally Posted by Locke

I honestly dont know if the laws have changed, but if some kid is just wandering around through the store and there were no liability on the store I dont see why they'd detain the kid rather than just ask him to leave.

I think detaining the kid in the store until the parent arrives is ultimately the safest course of action (i.e. keep him in a controlled environment) and if he is as big of a LEGO aficionado as the parent claims, then it shouldn't seem like he is being detained at all.

[jtfrogger]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Not to mention, we only have his word that that is what the manager/guard said. I would honestly be a little surprised if that's what they said. If it is, it shows a lack of judgement on their part, but the father seems to have crafted a pretty good narrative here, and memory can be a bit selective and malleable.

Agreed. But even if they did say these things, did they do so after the parent created a big scene?

Also, the child in question was 9. The father used an 11.5yo as an example. Same difference, imo...an age doesn't make one magically able to or not to deal with something. If the kid was acting responsibly, awesome for him.

He was vague, but implied he was 11.5. The intro said, "He has been going to the Lego store alone to spend his money since he was 9." The reference to an 11.5 year-old did not explicitly say that is how old his son was. It doesn't change my opinion. I'm pretty sure I went to the store alone as young as 6 or 7. I was probably a much better customer at that age than when I was 13 (more honest, less mischievous).

I wonder if it's a question of responsibility though. With the lack of a parent present, is the store now liable (or would they be HELD liable) for anything that occurred? I'm not going to say an abduction, as that's unlikely...but what if one of the big boxes fell on the kids head? What if he choked on a small piece that they have laying around. The child went to the store himself...is the store responsible for him?

Seems like a bad situation all around.

IANAL, but I would suspect that much of the liability would be on the parents in this situation. Especially in the helicopter parent age we live in.

[cKy]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

To be fair do we really know this was said? We have one version of events, from an individual that is presenting them in a way that will make himself look good.

I am not saying it was or was not said. I am saying this individual has a blog and is obviously social media wise.

I have had dealing with Chinook security. It is, well was, one of the best run security set ups in the city.

I will also say that I let me kids "run free". I am constantly trying to find my kids in the neighbourhood when it is meal time or time to come in.

It probably isnt fair to side with the parents based on their one sided view on things, but that's all we have to go on at this point. I think the bigger discussion is still on at what age/point do we let kids go be kids and not hover over them in fear of the boogeyman with the free candy sign coming.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by cKy

It probably isnt fair to side with the parents based on their one sided view on things, but that's all we have to go on at this point. I think the bigger discussion is still on at what age/point do we let kids go be kids and not hover over them in fear of the boogeyman with the free candy sign coming.

I was letting mine run the neighbourhood at 6/7.

It is all about educating and informing them. They are aware that they have an AO (area of operations). It is defined with visible land marks. If they leave that the AO with prior contact with a parent......well we have a discussion.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Do you really think Canada is "child-unfriendly"

Yes. We earmark places and establishments as 'family-friendly' and 'child-friendly.' In most of the world there is no need to make that distinction, as family-friendly and child-friendly are the default. You can spend half a day walking around Calgary and never see anyone under 15. That's not my experience outside North America. And in many countries I've been to, adults routinely interact with children around them who are not their own. Joke with them, kick a ball with them. That is a breach of etiquette in North America, where children are largely segregated from contact with society beyond their parents, schools, and supervised sports activities. And there is a significant proportion of the adult population who do not like children, and do not like to be around them, or see or hear them. Again, that's not the case elsewhere that I've seen.

Can you name some countries you've been to that are less child friendly than Canada and the U.S.?

[Resolute 14]

Reading that post, I think the parent is probably as big a d-bag as anyone else in this situation. I have a feeling his version of events is heavily edited to create far more sympathy than he deserves.

In particular, what is not stated is how long the kid was in the store. Anyone who has ever been in that store knows there is a constant stream of people flowing through it, with kids running everywhere. It is unlikely that any staff would have noticed this particular kid was unattended unless they saw him there over a longer period of time without ever interacting with an adult. Maybe the kid was indecisive or slow to decide what this week's hundreds of dollars were going to be put toward. But if he was there long enough that a staff member went to check up, I would lean toward the store not wishing to act as a babysitting service, as Bobblehead notes.

Manager likely could have handled it better, but parent needs to get over himself. The demands for "restitution" smack of pure egotism. And if you come across this, dad, I have news for you: "We left the store and have no plans to return" is not the threat you think it is. If anything, the store would be happy to hear that as the only thing you likely represent is one less hassle they have to deal with in the future.

[CedarMeter]

My have times changed. When I was ten I remember going to the store alone to pick my mom up a pack of smokes. It was all good just had to have a note from your parents.

[cKy]

My aunt gave us $20 to go pick up her dry cleaning when we were young - I wouldve been about 8 or 9, and the front of the dry cleaners was an arcade. She never got her dry cleaning that day. Good Times.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I was letting mine run the neighbourhood at 6/7.

We just started letting our 7 year olds go to the playground in the field behind our house. They're already been questioned by a couple adults about where their parents were (which our kids handled fine). But we're preparing ourselves for the eventuality of having our kids brought home by an overly-anxious parent.

[Russic]

Can you imagine if kids were abducted from Chinook Centre "all the time"? If that claim is true, it's fairly hilarious. As others have said, we're only getting one side of this story. Maybe he was being a D and the security guard and manager wanted to get some jabs in. Then again, the opinion that letting kids do things on their own = bad parents is quite pervasive.

I don't really see it as the kid is getting babysat by the store. Unless their opening his juice box and reading him a story, I'd doubt he was interfering with their day to day operations.

[polak]

My parents sent me EVERY WHERE alone when I was a kid and that was only 15-17 years ago. I remember biking alone around all of Sarcee, Signal Hill, to school and back all by myself as young as the 2nd and 3rd grade. No issues.

I even got hit by a car in the 2nd grade and the cops didn't give my mom any grief for letting me go out alone. It's crazy too because I didn't have cell phones or any way to contact someone if something went wrong. You'd think it'd be better now. I think paranoia from more exposure to the news has made it worse these days.

It's funny that it's adults that ridiculing everyone though... Your generation caused this. It's YOU guys that are the problem.

[polak]

When was the last time that a kid was kidnapped by a stranger?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Yes. We earmark places and establishments as 'family-friendly' and 'child-friendly.' In most of the world there is no need to make that distinction, as family-friendly and child-friendly are the default. You can spend half a day walking around Calgary and never see anyone under 15. That's not my experience outside North America. And in many countries I've been to, adults routinely interact with children around them who are not their own. Joke with them, kick a ball with them. That is a breach of etiquette in North America, where children are largely segregated from contact with society beyond their parents, schools, and supervised sports activities. And there is a significant proportion of the adult population who do not like children, and do not like to be around them, or see or hear them. Again, that's not the case elsewhere that I've seen.

Can you name some countries you've been to that are less child friendly than Canada and the U.S.?

Wow, I think you're out to lunch on this. There must be something else at play. Like perhaps when you travel you are doing holiday-type things where you are likely to run into families who are also travelling. People bring their kids on vacation and have a lot of time to just hang out and play with their kids. It's a primary reason why people like getting away.

Do you have kids? If not, that would explain why you aren't running into them at the office, or at university, or when you're out at the pub.

I have kids and my life revolves around them, their friends and randoms from the neighbourhood. If I go to the park by my house, I know the little kids that live around there will show up. I know their names and I've never once met their parents. Same thing when we go to the lake by our house (in Calgary) - we always meet a random kid that hangs out with us.

Kids are everywhere so I have no idea what you are talking about. And Calgary is wicked kid friendly. Just got back from San Diego and it is, too. No matter where I go on this continent there are playgrounds and activities for kids.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Yes. We earmark places and establishments as 'family-friendly' and 'child-friendly.' In most of the world there is no need to make that distinction, as family-friendly and child-friendly are the default. You can spend half a day walking around Calgary and never see anyone under 15. That's not my experience outside North America. And in many countries I've been to, adults routinely interact with children around them who are not their own. Joke with them, kick a ball with them. That is a breach of etiquette in North America, where children are largely segregated from contact with society beyond their parents, schools, and supervised sports activities. And there is a significant proportion of the adult population who do not like children, and do not like to be around them, or see or hear them. Again, that's not the case elsewhere that I've seen.

Can you name some countries you've been to that are less child friendly than Canada and the U.S.?

To be honest, I don't really take note of that type of thing when I travel. It just isn't on my radar, so I can't comment one way or the other.

I can't support or refute your claim about kids in Calgary. I know that I see a large number of kid out & about in Sylvan. When we lived in Calgary our kids were 5 & 7, so I wasn't letting them run completely free yet.

[cKy]

Originally Posted by polak

When was the last time that a kid was kidnapped by a stranger?

This is a great question - even with social media blowing everything out of proportion, you never really hear of this scenario. Be interesting to get stats on this.

EDIT: so quick google-fu "A 2003 study tried to break down those numbers. Marlene Dalley and Jenna Ruscoe, then with the RCMP's National Missing Children Services, studied the 90 stranger abduction missing child reports that had been entered into the national police database in 2000 and 2001. They found just two of those children had been abducted by someone other than a relative or a close family friend"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/child-...nada-1.1335061

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by cKy

This is a great question - even with social media blowing everything out of proportion, you never really hear of this scenario. Be interesting to get stats on this.

A few years ago, actually about 7 now I think about it, I listened to a fella on CBC radio. It was all about this type of thing. He had researched that very question.

What he found (IIRC) was there was no real difference in rates of abduction from then to now (well 7 trs ago). The big difference was the broad dissemination of news/information that now happens. If a child was taken from Nova Scotia people in Alberta usually didn't hear about it.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Wow, I think you're out to lunch on this. There must be something else at play. Like perhaps when you travel you are doing holiday-type things where you are likely to run into families who are also travelling. People bring their kids on vacation and have a lot of time to just hang out and play with their kids. It's a primary reason why people like getting away.

Do you have kids? If not, that would explain why you aren't running into them at the office, or at university, or when you're out at the pub.

I have kids and my life revolves around them, their friends and randoms from the neighbourhood. If I go to the park by my house, I know the little kids that live around there will show up. I know their names and I've never once met their parents. Same thing when we go to the lake by our house (in Calgary) - we always meet a random kid that hangs out with us.

Kids are everywhere so I have no idea what you are talking about. And Calgary is wicked kid friendly. Just got back from San Diego and it is, too. No matter where I go on this continent there are playgrounds and activities for kids.

I found this difference in Europe - children are brought everywhere - to New Years Eve, dinner parties, nice restaurants etc. They don't really arrange babysitters as it is assumed children are always welcome.

[polak]

It also seems like instead of viewing strangers as someone who would stop something bad from happening to your child, we view them as potential killers and rapists. It's pretty stupid when you think about it.

99.9% of people would run to the AID of a child they don't know.