9/11 conspiracy theorists energized

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Exactly. Those who dismiss those who raise questions about the events without being able to say they have done the research are doing themselves a dis-serevice IMO. If they think they know what happened because they watched events unfold on TV, reported through the filter of government license, they are sadly mistaken. I think people should do the research or not approach the subject.

There are no experts in the fields of demolition that agree with the fact that the WTC's had to br brought down by explosives. In fact, most are suprised that they kept standing for as long as they did. There are also no credible experts that dispute that it was indeed a plane that hit the pentagon.

The problem is that the Conspiracy theorists hold the burden of proof to such a ridiculously high standard on the 'official' story (re: the truth) but to their discredit do not do the same for their ridiculous rantings.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

...How a head has not rolled after this is beyond me. Clinton got demonized in the media and impeached for getting blow job. Bush can illegally invade nations, send Americans off to die under false pretenses, and profiteer off of the war, and he doesn't even get a passing glance from the media. How screwed up is this country getting?

Enough so that I am forever thankful to be Canadian. Small consollation, but at least he is not my president.
BTW, Lanny, have you ever seen Eugene Jarecki's documentary Why We Fight? It is worth watching:
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Enough so that I am forever thankful to be Canadian. Small consollation, but at least he is not my president.
BTW, Lanny, have you ever seen Eugene Jarecki's documentary Why We Fight? It is worth watching:
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/

I actually own it. I rented it, viewed it, and immediately ordered it. One of the best documentaries I have seen. Very informative and required viewing for any "hawk" out there.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

You sort of answered your own question. They're too busy padding the pockets of friends to BOTHER about keeping soldiers safe. Ever think the body armor is probably not made by one of those lobbies that supported the Bush campaign, hence the refusal to sign off on the bill for the armor? It's better for Bush to continue to replace vehicles (and soldiers) that get destroyed than retro-fit vehicles with armor plating from a company that didn't play well during his campaign. Or was that just too straight forward to consider? You never work for a business who had prefered vendors and would rather replace a whole system than pay another vendor to repair a broken one? There is a reason why there is billions unaccounted for in Iraq you know.

I can roll with that.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Sorry, fat fingers when typing fast. I think I've posted the name enough around here to prove I can spell the name correctly. Jesus 5X5, you never make a typo before when typing fast?

After I posted that, I thought you would tell me that it was a reference to some movie or documentary I haven't seen.
While I'm picking on your spelling, wanna tell me why there's an 'a' in your McDonald?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by 4X4

While I'm picking on your spelling, wanna tell me why there's an 'a' in your McDonald?

I didn't want "Mc"Donald coming after me if I should say something controversial (and that has happened a couple times since I adopted the moniker over a decade ago).

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

People really need to do some research on things, before blowing it off.

I did my research, and too many things are VERY strange coincidences.

Once again, the best message I can give is, go do some of your own research...then tell me that the story adds up.

Drive by

BLAM http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

Written well before Loose change bull****. Now everyone can go back to listening to actual scientists and not mis-quoted witnesses and "experts" in no particular related field.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Enough so that I am forever thankful to be Canadian. Small consollation, but at least he is not my president.
BTW, Lanny, have you ever seen Eugene Jarecki's documentary Why We Fight? It is worth watching:
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/

Nice. Just watched that one and it was very good. Dealt with some of the same issues that a Noam Chomsky lecture on the War on Terror I watched the week before did.

[Hakan]

Not all conspiracy theorists are loons. Would you consider Gore Vidal a nutcase? Because he has raised some very legitimate questions in at least two books of his after 9-11. Like why did it take so long to scramble the F16s from Virginia? He interviews a Russian air force colonel who says that airspace over Russia is constantly monitored over radar. The instant that ONE plane deviates from its flight path alarms are sounded.

On September 11 four planes simultaneously not only alter their flight path but pull complete uturns and their was no response from the air force for almost an hour.

I'm not saying this, Gore Vidal was.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Drive by

BLAM http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

Written well before Loose change bull****. Now everyone can go back to listening to actual scientists and not mis-quoted witnesses and "experts" in no particular related field.

Too bad that this article was blown to pieces as being uninformed and inspired by junk science in its own right. Peter Meyer as well as the Scholars for 9/11 Truth have destroyed the article. As well, the article was written by 25 year old "senior researcher" Benjamin Chertoff, the first cousin of Michael Chertoff, the Secretary of Department of Homeland Security. His inability to discuss the matters under cross examination from exerts in their field proved that the story was fed to him and Popular Mechanics.

One last thing about the source of this "debunkers bible", I'm still waiting for that flying car that will save me countless hours in commutes each year! Popular Mechanics is an authority on nothing. What's next? An Omni magazine article refuting the law of gravity?

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Too bad that this article was blown to pieces as being uninformed and inspired by junk science in its own right. Peter Meyer as well as the Scholars for 9/11 Truth have destroyed the article. As well, the article was written by 25 year old "senior researcher" Benjamin Chertoff, the first cousin of Michael Chertoff, the Secretary of Department of Homeland Security. His inability to discuss the matters under cross examination from exerts in their field proved that the story was fed to him and Popular Mechanics.

Linky?

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Drive by

BLAM http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

Written well before Loose change bull****. Now everyone can go back to listening to actual scientists and not mis-quoted witnesses and "experts" in no particular related field.

Rofl. That site is funny you do know that.

They use just as many far-reaching theories as the loose change authors.

Their theory of damaged lobbies? Fuel leaked from the 85th floor in air-tight elevator shafts, exploded in the airless environment, set fire to every floor below, cutting the elevator cable and dropped the elevators to the ground level, where they exploded and caused intense damage to the lobbies themselves.

"The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," " - Come on. That's real evidence right there . Oh, and I like how they photographed ONE piece of debris on the pentagon's undamaged lawn and suddenly it's OBVIOUS that the whole plane crashed there.

I also enjoy how the hundreds of cameras at the pentagon, the most sophisticated surveillance system in the world, and all we get is 5 frames of grainy crap that you can't see ANYTHING in.

[White Doors]

sources for the PM article:

PM consulted more than 300 experts and organizations in its investigation into 9/11 conspiracy theories. The following were particularly helpful.
Air Crash Analysis
Cleveland Center regional air traffic control
Bill Crowley special agent, FBI
Ron Dokell president, Demolition Consultants
Richard Gazarik staff writer, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
Yates Gladwell pilot, VF Corp.
Michael K. Hynes, Ed.D.,
ATP, CFI, A&P/IA president, Hynes Aviation Services; expert, aviation crashes
Ed Jacoby Jr. director,
New York State Emergency Management Office (Ret.); chairman, New York State Disaster Preparedness Commission (Ret.)
Johnstown-Cambria County Airport Authority
Cindi Lash staff writer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Matthew McCormick manager, survival factors division, National Transportation Safety Board (Ret.)
Wallace Miller coroner, Somerset County, PA
Robert Nagan meteorological technician, Climate Services Branch, National Climatic Data Center
Dave Newell director, aviation and travel, VF Corp.
James O’Toole politics editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Pennsylvania State Police Public Information Office
Jeff Pillets senior writer,
The Record, Hackensack, NJ
Jeff Rienbold director, Flight 93 National Memorial, National Park Service
Dennis Roddy staff writer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Master Sgt. David Somdahl public affairs officer,
119th Wing, North Dakota
Air National Guard
Mark Stahl photographer; eyewitness, United Airlines Flight 93 crash scene
Air Defense
Lt. Col. Skip Aldous (Ret.) squadron commander,
U.S. Air Force
Tech. Sgt. Laura Bosco public affairs officer,
Tyndall Air Force Base
Boston Center regional air traffic control
Laura Brown spokeswoman,
Federal Aviation Administration
Todd Curtis, Ph.D. founder, Airsafe.com; president, Airsafe.com Foundation
Keith Halloway public affairs officer, National Transportation Safety Board
Ted Lopatkiewicz director, public affairs, National Transportation Safety Board
Maj. Douglas Martin public affairs officer,
North American Aerospace Defense Command
Lt. Herbert McConnell public affairs officer,
Andrews AFB
Michael Perini public affairs officer, North American Aerospace Defense Command
John Pike director, GlobalSecurity.org
Hank Price spokesman, Federal
Aviation Administration
Warren Robak RAND Corp.
Bill Shumann spokesman,
Federal Aviation Administration
Louis Walsh public affairs officer, Eglin AFB
Chris Yates aviation security editor, analyst, Jane’s Transport
Aviation
Fred E.C. Culick, Ph.D., S.B., S.M. professor of aeronautics, California Institute of Technology
Robert Everdeen public affairs, Northrop Grumman
Clint Oster professor of public and environmental affairs, Indiana University; aviation safety expert
Capt. Bill Scott (Ret. USAF) Rocky Mountain bureau chief, Aviation Week
Bill Uher News Media Office, NASA Langley Research Center
Col. Ed Walby (Ret. USAF)
director, business development, HALE Systems Enterprise, Unmanned Systems, Northrop Grumman
Image Analysis
William F. Baker member, FEMA Probe Team; partner, Skidmore, Owings, Merrill
W. Gene Corley, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. senior vice president, CTL Group; director,
FEMA Probe Team
Bill Daly senior vice president, Control Risks Group
Steve Douglass image analysis consultant, Aviation Week
Thomas R. Edwards, Ph.D. founder, TREC; video forensics expert.
Ronald Greeley, Ph.D. professor of geology, Arizona State University
Rob Howard freelance photographer; WTC eyewitness
Robert L. Parker, Ph.D. professor of geophysics,
University of California, San Diego
Structural Engineering / Building Collapse
Farid Alfawakhiri, Ph.D. senior engineer, American Institute of Steel Construction
David Biggs, P.E. structural engineer, Ryan-Biggs Associates; member, ASCE team for FEMA report
Robert Clarke structural engineer, Controlled Demolitions Group Ltd.
Glenn Corbett technical editor, Fire Engineering; member, NIST advisory committee
Vincent Dunn deputy fire chief (Ret.), FDNY; author, The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety
John Fisher, Ph.D. professor of civil engineering, Lehigh University; professor emeritus, Center for Advanced Technology; member, FEMA Probe Team
Ken Hays executive vice president, Masonry Arts
Christoph Hoffmann, Ph.D. professor of computer science, Purdue University; project director, September 11 Pentagon Attack Simulations Using LS-Dyna, Purdue University
Allyn E. Kilsheimer, P.E.
CEO, KCE Structural Engineers PC; chief structural engineer, Phoenix project; expert in blast recovery, concrete structures, emergency response
Won-Young Kim, Ph.D. seismologist, Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University
William Koplitz photo desk manager, FEMA
John Labriola freelance photographer, WTC survivor
Arthur Lerner-Lam, Ph.D. seismologist; director,
Earth Institute, Center for Hazards and Risk Research, Columbia University
James Quintiere, Ph.D. professor of engineering, University of Maryland member, NIST advisory committee
Steve Riskus freelance photographer; eyewitness, Pentagon crash
Van Romero, Ph.D. vice president, New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology
Christine Shaffer spokesperson, Viracon
Mete Sozen, Ph.D., S.E. Kettelhut Distinguished Professor of Structural Engineering, Purdue University; member, Pentagon Building Performance Report; project conception, September 11 Pentagon Attack Simulations Using LS-Dyna, Purdue University
Shyam Sunder, Sc.D.
acting deputy director, lead investigator, Building and Fire Research Laboratory, National Institute of Standards and Technology
Mary Tobin science writer, media relations, Earth Institute, Columbia University
Forman Williams, Ph.D. professor of engineering, physics, combustion, University of California,
San Diego; member, advisory committee, National Institute of

[White Doors]

Sorry Regorium, Lanny, I'll take those PHD's over your delusions.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Rofl. That site is funny you do know that.

They use just as many far-reaching theories as the loose change authors.

Their theory of damaged lobbies? Fuel leaked from the 85th floor in air-tight elevator shafts, exploded in the airless environment, set fire to every floor below, cutting the elevator cable and dropped the elevators to the ground level, where they exploded and caused intense damage to the lobbies themselves.

You do realize airtight and airless are two different things. Elevators don't work in a vacuum.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Barnes

You do realize airtight and airless are two different things. Elevators don't work in a vacuum.

meh, minor detail! Let's hang Bush!

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

One last thing about the source of this "debunkers bible", I'm still waiting for that flying car that will save me countless hours in commutes each year! Popular Mechanics is an authority on nothing. What's next? An Omni magazine article refuting the law of gravity?

Are you saying that it's Popular Mechanics' fault that Moller is behind in R&D as well as putting out the finished product?

In case anybody wants to look at the Moller Sky Car: http://www.moller.com/purchase/purch_info.html

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Linky?

http://st911.org/

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_me..._mechanics.htm

Also, one of the books I read on the subject, I can't remember whether it was by Lance (the guy who blew the lid off of what the government knew prior to 9/11) or Griffin (the guy who exposed the 9/11 Commission Report as bogus) but they pointed to this, and articles similar to it, as practicing poor investigative techniques and yellow journalism. Chertoff, for example, was found to have called many agencies and and asked if they cared to comment on the article he was researching, and when they said "no" he still sourced them, claiming support to "his" findings. It would be the same as me claiming that I have been to Harvard and Princeton during my educational career. It is indeed fact. I visited both campuses of Harvard and Princeton while I was in school. Neither of those schools will acknowledge I went there, but I have proof of some snapshots and memorabilia from the gift shop.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Barnes

You do realize airtight and airless are two different things. Elevators don't work in a vacuum.

You do realize that the elevators in the WTC were staggered to provide efficient service. The only elevator that ran the entire height of the building was the freight elevator, and it was on the other side of the building from where the plane struck the first tower, so this theory is impossible as the fuel would have burned long before it had a chance to run across the building, leak through the fire doors, run ~500 feet to the lobby and explode. This is the equivalent of the JFK magic bullet. But hey, some people believe that bull**** story too.

[White Doors]

I seem to recall pieced of the jet going through and through..

[Bingo]

Man this topic just has me shaking my head every time it comes up.

Lanny, am I getting old? I just don't have the fire to go round and round on these things any more.

I think the biggest problem in this and many issues in the media saturated (internets, blogs, etc) world we now live in is the blur between fact and conjecture.

a magazine debunks 911 myths with a huge bibliography and a host of experts - you read it ... they seem confident you take it as fact. Then a web site or two drills that into pieces with their own sources and people that are experts - you read it ... they seem confident you take it as fact.

Which is it?

Both can't be right ... or are these events confused enough that there are numerous points that can be massaged to fit different theories.

You guys can believe what ever you want. I don't believe it was an inside job, and my best reason for that is pure and plain logic. There are too many jouralists working for credible agencies looking to make a name for themselves to leave this topic alone if it was as cut and dried as the conspiracy theorists make it out to be. All of these guys choose to leave it? How many people are we talking 10,000? 20,000? more?

Doesn't add up.