[News] Norris Finalists - Doughty, Karlsson and Subban

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Am I the only one that is surprised that Doughty is on the list?


I look at this stats and find them underwhelming.

Eastern voters: "Crap, I need to add someone from the west to balance it out. Oh, hmm. Maybe Doughty. he was pretty good in last year's playoffs."

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by heep223

I also am shocked re: no Weber.

Arguably not the best defenceman on his own team, which hurts. He dropped off a fair bit in the 2nd half.

[Locke]

I'm sorry but thats a crap list. I cant believe Subban and Karlsson even got votes let alone full nominations.

Doughty better win this but the real best defencemen in the league arent even represented.

Simply more proof that the Norris has become a complete joke.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by neo45

The NHL is ruining this award. Doughty is head and shoulders better than the other two


It's pretty much the Phil Housley trophy now. Whoever can put up the most points

I agree with you about the award, and I agree that Doughty is a better defenseman than either of Subban or Karlsson. But he didn't have as good of a season as is his norm, and the award is for the individual season. Honestly, being nominated is more on his reputation as better than anything. The fact that he hasn't one one to date is ludicrous.

And this may sound homer, but I personally don't get why Gio missing the last 15 games should completely disqualify him. He was the best defenseman when he went down and the best all season. So he gets hurt and now he's not the best?

[troutman]

Subban was not trusted to play for Team Canada.

I think the Flames have 3-4 d-men more valuable than him.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by troutman

Subban was not trusted to play for Team Canada.

The Norris Trophy is not given to the player who was giving significant minutes in the Olympics in a completely different season.

I think the Flames have 3-4 d-men more valuable than him.

Two for sure, but nor is the Norris Trophy given to the Most Valuable Defenceman.


IMO, Subban has a better argument for winning this year than he did the year he actually won. I'd vote him before Karlsson or Doughty, but with Gio out, I would have gone Weber or Brodie.

[Savvy27]

I'm not sure why Giordano fell out of the mix. He was razor-close to Karlsson in points per game (.80 v .79). Karlsson doesn't even kill penalties for the Senators whereas Giordano played a main role in every situation for the team. Giordano was better than Doughty this year and even outscored him despite playing 21 fewer games.

Even the fact that Calgary did well without him was influenced by his leadership throughout this year and last and his continued involvement throughout his rehab. Gio should have at least received a nomination.

[Philly06Cup]

Karlsson is a beast. He is the best defenseman in the league right now.

Drew Doughty: 29 minutes a game for 82 games makes him worthy of consideration in my book.

Don't watch enough of PK to comment.

Byfuglien I thought could've been a darkhorse for MVP. Moved up and down the lineup with constant injuries to the Jets lineup.

What's with all the Weber love: Josi had a better season.

Brent Burns had a great year, but his team slipped off.

Wideman, Russell, Brodie stepping up bigtime hurt Gio's chances in the end. Too bad; definitely the favorite while he was healthy.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

I'm not sure why Giordano fell out of the mix. He was razor-close to Karlsson in points per game (.80 v .79). Karlsson doesn't even kill penalties for the Senators whereas Giordano played a main role in every situation for the team. Giordano was better than Doughty this year and even outscored him despite playing 21 fewer games.

Even the fact that Calgary did well without him was influenced by his leadership throughout this year and last and his continued involvement throughout his rehab. Gio should have at least received a nomination.

He did get a nomination and was at least one voter's pick. he just didn't get into the top 3.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by troutman

Subban was not trusted to play for Team Canada.

I think the Flames have 3-4 d-men more valuable than him.

Quoted for posterity and hilarity.

I cannot believe you honestly think this.

[Haplo]

Ottawa wouldn't be anywhere near playoffs without Karlsson, so I'd say he's been the most valuable D-man of those three.

Seems to me like there might be somewhat of a west bias in this thread.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Haplo

Ottawa wouldn't be anywhere near playoffs without Karlsson, so I'd say he's been the most valuable D-man of those three.

Seems to me like there might be somewhat of a west bias in this thread.

And a ridiculously improbably run of form from Andrew Hammond.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by flamesfan55

Am I the only one that thinks Subban is insanely overhyped??

Agreed. He's a big body who can skate when he gets enough momentum going, but he takes unnecessary selfish risks in his own end, too often. I was actually pretty shocked to see him a few games ago screaming for his forward to pass the puck back to him in his own zone so he could go for his own 1 on 5 end to end rushes. The spineless commentators didn't say anything but it was showing up his teammates the way he was screaming for it when the play was already in the neutral zone and he was in his own zone, and it was a low yield play. The guy has to learn to pick his spots at the very least.

[N-E-B]

Karlsson is the best offensive defenseman in the NHL, but in terms of an all-around player he isn't even close. My nominees would be Doughty, Keith, and Giordano (yes, despite the injury). Subban shouldn't even be close.

If Doughty doesn't win this that's a joke. Karlsson and Subban are good, but there's a lot of guys I would take ahead of both of them.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Karlsson is the best offensive defenseman in the NHL, but in terms of an all-around player he isn't even close. My nominees would be Doughty, Keith, and Giordano (yes, despite the injury). Subban shouldn't even be close.

If Doughty doesn't win this that's a joke. Karlsson and Subban are good, but there's a lot of guys I would take ahead of both of them.

I would rate Karlsson's defensive abilities as below Doughty's but above Subban's but they're still borderline one-dimensional players.

We have to redefine the Norris for Best Defencemen, it should be for the guys that log big minutes, match up against top lines, lay the body, play the puck and are at the top of their class in all areas of the ice.

You do that and you'll see guys like Weber, Suter, Gio, Brodie, etc, really rise to the top.

Sure, the Karlssons and Subbans score the goals and light up the powerplay, but IMO that isnt enough. Or at least it shouldnt be.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by Locke

I would rate Karlsson's defensive abilities as below Doughty's but above Subban's but they're still borderline one-dimensional players.

We have to redefine the Norris for Best Defencemen, it should be for the guys that log big minutes, match up against top lines, lay the body, play the puck and are at the top of their class in all areas of the ice.

You do that and you'll see guys like Weber, Suter, Gio, Brodie, etc, really rise to the top.

Sure, the Karlssons and Subbans score the goals and light up the powerplay, but IMO that isnt enough. Or at least it shouldnt be.

Agreed, the trophy should go to the best all-around guy, which IMO was Giordano this year.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Haplo

Ottawa wouldn't be anywhere near playoffs without Karlsson, so I'd say he's been the most valuable D-man of those three.

Seems to me like there might be somewhat of a west bias in this thread.

Or maybe just a "best defenseman in the league should get the Norris rather than it be a "Defenseman Art Ross"" bias.





If we're gonna give an East player the Norris, why not John Carlson? 55pts, +11, 82GP,

If we're going to give the Norris to the guy logging heavy minutes, why not Ryan Suter? 29:04 ATOI to Doughty's 28:00 and not much difference in any other stat.

Of course, if we're going to give the Norris to the best defenseman in the NHL, then it is Mark Giordano.

[Slava]

To me Giordano should've been in the top three, and the fact that he isn't is just wrong. He didn't just have a good 61 games, he was absolutely dominant. He has more points in those games that Doughty over the whole season, and frankly had far more impact for the Flames than either Karlsson or Subban over that time frame.

I find it somewhat disingenuous of the writers who vote to say "well he would've won, but its only 61 games..." That's BS. Are they suggesting that his last 21 games would've been terrible? I get it if he played 25 games and went down, but 61 is enough to pass judgment on his season. Its a cop out. And to have Doughty there who didn't have great stats and couldn't get his team to the playoffs is even more ridiculous.

[mikephoen]

Maybe if they added a trophy like the Art Ross but for defensemen scoring then that would free up the voters to make the Norris a trophy for the best all around defenseman.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Slava

To me Giordano should've been in the top three, and the fact that he isn't is just wrong. He didn't just have a good 61 games, he was absolutely dominant. He has more points in those games that Doughty over the whole season, and frankly had far more impact for the Flames than either Karlsson or Subban over that time frame.

I find it somewhat disingenuous of the writers who vote to say "well he would've won, but its only 61 games..." That's BS. Are they suggesting that his last 21 games would've been terrible? I get it if he played 25 games and went down, but 61 is enough to pass judgment on his season. Its a cop out. And to have Doughty there who didn't have great stats and couldn't get his team to the playoffs is even more ridiculous.

Yeah, its 3/4s of the season. Easily a big enough sample size.